Private dwelling or place of work ?

[John]

I would be grateful for any help on this one if you would be so kind.

At what point does a private dwelling become a place of work ?

Let me explain...

Example 1

A man owns a relatively large estate. There is a large mansion house, gardeners workshops and potting sheds etc, accommodation for PA and family.

Would this man require a fire risk assessment ?

Example 2

A man owns a private house. He employs a cleaner to clean his house.

Would this man require a fire risk assessment ?

As both examples are private dwellings, they are also places of work. I appreciate the examples are very different, but I would appreciate your comments.

Thank you in anticipation,

J

[kurnal]

Hi Redpoint.
Fire Safety Order covers all places with very few exceptions. One important exception is domestic premises, another is woods and fields.

Example 1 Fire Safety Order covers the estate except for the domestic premises and woods and fields. So potting shed, woodyard, workshops are covered. The mansion house is not. Domestic servants are employees and the Mansion house may be their workplace- but the mansion house is still still dmestic premises and so the presense of domestic servants does not over ride this.

Example 2- Still domestic premises- Fire safety Order does not apply. However it is still a workplace for the cleaner - H&S at Work legislation will apply- it is a workplace- but fire safety Order does not apply. The employer eg cleaning agency has a duty to ensure staff are trained and competent and work safely. Trained to recognise hazards, working to Safe systems of work.

[The Colonel]

Had an interestiing call last year from an employer who wanted a fire risk assessment undertaken on a chaps home office, the gentleman used a bedroom as an office and spent most of his time out on clients premises. When asked did clients visit the house the answer was no so I informed him that as it was a private house with no clients visiting that it did not fall under the order, quite prepared to take his money but for no reason, hence assessment not carried out which seemed fine by me.

However some days later when talking to an ex-collegue who is now an FSO I was surprised to hear him say that as it was a place of work that he would expect a full fire risk assessment which I thought was a little harsh to say the least. Glad I dont live on his patch as I firmly believe that the order does not apply to my 6ft x 9ft office where there is no chance of swinging the odd cat or two

[Ricardo]

Private dwellings are not defined in fire legislation, however the dwellings of homeworkers who work for their employer from a room within their own, privately owned dwelling, are outside the scope of the fire safety legislation( but as Kurnal has said not outside of the HASAWA)

[John]

Thank you all for your replies.

I'm sorry I may not have given enough information in my example. In the house on the large estate, there is an office which is utilised by members of staff, and also a member of the PA's family cleans for the owner.

I hope this sheds a little more light on this.

Thank you again,

J

[kurnal]

The fire safety order applies to the office and its routes in and out  but not to the domestic areas. Everybody in the building is a relevant person if they may be affected by a fire in the office. The order simply does not cover the domestic areas so theres no such thing as a relevant person as far as a fire in the domestic areas is concerned.

[John]

Thank you all for your replies.

They have been most helpful.

Kind regards,

J

[Clive]

Although I agree with the points expressed so far in this thread.

It has been brought to my attention that one fire authority has issued RRO enforcement notices on domestic dwellings where a care worker administers care to the resident.  

Following this principle, any private home that has someone come in to administer medication, put to bed services or sits with someone with a terminal illness etc. is in danger of getting a notice.

Also they imply if the organisation that offers the medication or care facility employs over 5 then, the FRA must be documented etc.  

How many private dwellings with elderly or disabled residents does this apply to then ?

Do the senior officers in the fire authority check on enforcement notices before they go out ?

If the notice is illegal can compensation for stress to the occupant be sought ?

So much for care in the community !

[Clive]

Although I agree with the points expressed so far in this thread.

It has been brought to my attention that one fire authority has issued RRO enforcement notices on domestic dwellings where a care worker administers care to the resident.  

Following this principle, any private home that has someone come in to administer medication, put to bed services or sits with someone with a terminal illness etc. is in danger of getting a notice.

Also they imply if the organisation that offers the medication or care facility employs over 5 then, the FRA must be documented etc.  

How many private dwellings with elderly or disabled residents does this apply to then ?

Do the senior officers in the fire authority check on enforcement notices before they go out ?

If the notice is illegal can compensation for stress to the occupant be sought ?

So much for care in the community !

[jokar]

New one on me.  If that is the case then every domestic, specifically excluded from the Order, will be enforced against as numbers of so called worker, meter readers etc visit them on an occasional basis.

Without knowing the whole circumstances, the care workers work should be risk assessed but there is no requirement for a risk assessment in a domestic premises.

In answer to your questions

a. Lots

b. Probably not.

c. Try it and see.

[Tom Sutton]

It has been brought to my attention that one fire authority has issued RRO enforcement notices on domestic dwellings where a care worker administers care to the resident.

Can you confirm this and provide the name of the FRS so it could be checked out. If not then you will most probably find it's one of those urban myths the HSE are plagued with, or is it a wind up.

[kurnal]

Spot on TW

[nearlythere]

Hi Redpoint.
Fire Safety Order covers all places with very few exceptions. One important exception is domestic premises, another is woods and fields.

Example 1 Fire Safety Order covers the estate except for the domestic premises and woods and fields. So potting shed, woodyard, workshops are covered. The mansion house is not. Domestic servants are employees and the Mansion house may be their workplace- but the mansion house is still still dmestic premises and so the presense of domestic servants does not over ride this.

Example 2- Still domestic premises- Fire safety Order does not apply. However it is still a workplace for the cleaner - H&S at Work legislation will apply- it is a workplace- but fire safety Order does not apply. The employer eg cleaning agency has a duty to ensure staff are trained and competent and work safely. Trained to recognise hazards, working to Safe systems of work.

Kurnal. Why do you suggest that the Order does not cover the woods and fields? They may be places of work.

[FSO]

not when used as agriculture.

[nearlythere]

not when used as agriculture.

Where is that bit FSO?