Author Topic: Holiday lets  (Read 22419 times)

Offline John Dragon

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Holiday lets
« on: March 12, 2008, 08:13:43 PM »
A customer of ours has 15 or so small holiday cottages, mostly old stone built, one or two bed, all are detached (some miles from anywhere), we service a powder extinguisher and a blanket in each of them. The customer wants to know if he should be providing anything else and if so, what regs/rules are relevant?
I am not sure if a FRA is necessary? Any thoughts please?

They also have some houses let to tennants, I assume that these are domestic and no regs apply?

Offline BCO

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Holiday lets
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2008, 10:04:25 PM »
On the question of whether the RRO applies to holiday lets, I seem to remember there was some debate on this forum last year sometime. I have also been asked a similar question recently, but it was a privately owned holiday home that was occasionally let to family and friends (for payment). The vast majority of the time it was occupied by the owner a second home (holiday home).

To answer the question I reviewed the RRO and it appeared to be the case that a holiday home type use is not specifically referred to, however the RRO does make reference to domestic premises. Domestic premises are specifically exempted from the requirements of the RRO. The Definition of domestic premises is ‘premises occupied as a private dwelling’. Therefore if we establish that at the times when the premises is let as a holiday home it is not a private dwelling then it suggests the RRO should apply.
The question whether the order applies to holiday homes has recently been debated in the fire press. In the July 07 issue of Fire Prevention Fire Engineers Journal, emeritus professor of fire law, Rosemary Everton, considers this very question.
The subject is considered initially in terms of the definition of a domestic premises being occupied as a private dwelling. And when hired as a holiday home it is still being enjoyed as a private dwelling albeit by the hirer. This being the case it could be argued that the premises are exempt from the requirements of the order.
The counter argument to this being that a definition of dwelling as defined by Lord Millett in Uratemp Ventures v Collins,  a dwelling is a place where one lives and makes one’s home, a place to which he returns and forms the centre of his existence.
Professor Everton concludes that

‘on such an analysis (and it emanates from the House of Lords) it surely emerges that for an occupier to occupy premises as a private dwelling he or she would need a considerable interest the place, an interest certainly larger than that either contemplated or conferred by a holiday hiring agreement. Accordingly, with such an interest appearing to be lacking, and the premises thus not being occupied as a private dwelling it follows that they do not constitute a domestic premises and hence are not excluded from the application of the Order’.

Although neither argument has been tested Professor Everton alludes to the view that, should the definition be tested, then the more cogent of the two cases is the definition of a dwelling not including premises let as a holiday home. The article concludes that ‘the nature of the subject is such that any search for precision remains to an extent unsatisfied, until the point is the subject of a court’s decision.’

So no definite clarification, however the stronger argument suggests the RRO does apply to holiday lets.  If it does apply then a fire risk assessment should be carried out, and adequate fire safety provision should be in place in line with the recommendations of the FRA.
I suppose a more straight forward way of establishing if your client need to carry  FRAs for the premises is to ask the Fire Authority where the holiday lets are located. If they say no and they put it in writing then maybe your client has to do no more. I asked the question in the instance quoted above and the Fire Authority took the view that the RRO did apply to holiday lets.

‘Houses let to tenants’. Not my forte, but I think the housing act applies to rented properties. (Or it used to) Local authorities can and do require minimum standards in terms of fire safety.

Offline The Colonel

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Holiday lets
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2008, 11:05:18 PM »
As far as Wales is concerned holiday lets are claased as a business and as such fall under the RRO. At a meeting between the 3 Welsh brigades, Visit Wales Tourist Board and the Welsh assembly Government in June 2007 it was made clear by the FRS that the RRO aplied and that a fire risk assessment would be required, this was backed up by legal counsels advice.

Have a look at the out come of the meeting at the following; http://new.wales.gov.uk/docrepos/40382/4038231141/403821124154/1616854/1616923?lang=cy

Offline kurnal

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Holiday lets
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2008, 11:16:55 PM »
The East Midlands tourist board takes the view that holiday lets are subject to the RRO and they will not offer a grading to any which does not have a recorded risk assessment. Gold plating the RRO I know but most owners want their ticks!

I put together a do it yourself template for one of the bigger letting agencies so they took a similar view. I canvassed the views of the Peak district Fire services, Environmental Dept and trading standards all who took Prof Evertons view.

Interesting that the sleeping guide says on page 1 that the document  applies to holiday chalets but cottages etc are not mentioned.

Offline trigger62

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Holiday lets
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2008, 10:46:44 PM »
interlinked mains wired smoke detectors with battery back-up in risk rooms eg lounge .provide same detection to cover escape routes including hallway and landing.heat detector in kitchen.
rechargeable torches in each bedroom.
fire blanket in kitchen.
risk assessment.
have i missed anything?

Offline kurnal

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Holiday lets
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2008, 10:58:46 PM »
You could consider:
Fire instructions and house rules for visitors- including the full address of the property with postcode?
Electrical, gas testing and PAT testing?
Rules on deep fat frying and candles?
Fire Blanket in kitchen?

And finally

Bottle of Moet and Chandon in the bedroom when I am staying?
Goblin teasmaid in every room?

Clevelandfire

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Holiday lets
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2008, 12:10:50 AM »
My opinion of the situation is that a holiday cottage is a business, and as a business the owners need to look after their guests properly

That said I dont for one second think that that should mean the owners spend unrealistic sums of cash on providing over the top provisions.

There are a few things that spring to mind for me:

Firstly a holiday cottage type property should be homely and relaxing and therefore not institutionalised

Secondly no family expects to go on holiday and be put at risk

Yes interlinked AFD and emergency lighting converted from the primary lighting or torches should be considered.

PAT / electrical / Gas testing is a must as Kurnal rightly points out  

And one key essential is the postcode and address details Kurnal also mentions - so simple yet often overlooked - damn good suggestion
 
My suggestion to add to the list would be night latch type locks on the front and back doors, no need to search round for keys then in an emergency.

Also maybe if possible details of where the family could go to to shelter from weather if they ever need to evacuate because of fire such as neighbouring houses?- ok perhaps going a bit OTT but i feel its only fair for any kids or the elderly to be kept dry and warm.

In the case of children it may make things less traumatic for them and plus keeps them away from the wonder of seeing fire engines and firefighters running about and getting in the way where they could be hurt.


The goblin teasmaids are an optional extra mind...

Offline John Dragon

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Holiday lets
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2008, 07:50:20 AM »
Thanks for all the above answers folks, much appreciated, and have been passed on to the owner of the props.

Offline PhilB

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Holiday lets
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2008, 08:09:42 AM »
The fact that it is a business is not really relevant but whether it is or is not a dwelling is as BCO correctly points out. If it is not a dwelling, it is not a domestic premises and therefore the Order applies.

It's a tricky one and if Proff Everton doesn't know I don't think we'll find the answer on here and we'll have to wait for a Courts decision.

Offline John Dragon

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Holiday lets
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2008, 08:48:22 AM »
And all the regs changes were supposed to make things simpler?

Offline PhilB

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Holiday lets
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2008, 08:53:08 AM »
They did to be fair John but this has always been a grey area and probably always will be. The Housing Act has tightened up the definintion of HMO.

Dwellings and domestic premises will always flag up problems. You wouldn't want a jackbooted inspector coming into your home and making you fit fire extinguishers and emergency lighting on your walls and quite rightly so.

But when does your home stop becoming a dwelling??? what if part of your home is used as a factory or a shop, or a childminders?

Still if life was too simple we'd have nothing to argue about!


...and Clevelandfire wouldn't be able to shoot himself in the foot so spectacularly.

Offline wee brian

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Holiday lets
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2008, 09:00:14 AM »
Yeah

Thank god for all of those torches though!

LOL

Midland Retty

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Holiday lets
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2008, 11:14:25 AM »
Quote from: PhilB
The fact that it is a business is not really relevant
But surely it is.... (I wont call you Shirley again)

When you hire out a cottage surely the RRO does apply because you have relevant persons on the premises?.

Offline nearlythere

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Holiday lets
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2008, 12:19:50 PM »
It is complicated. Thats why lawyers and barristers don't drive Skodas nor go to Skegness for their holidays.
I made a point very recently where, I thought, a home carer came under the RRO. This was shot down because she worked in a "dwelling".
Using the same rationale it would imply that I could run a business from my house (dwelling)  and escape the requirements of the legislation.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline wee brian

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Holiday lets
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2008, 01:40:38 PM »
Yes - as long as you don't have employees working there then it all gets a bit iffy again.

I suppose "domestic" employees (somebody who does your cleaning) or other people who work in domestic premises (odd job man/health visitor) won't affect it but other employees (typist who works in your office once a week would make it non-domestic (in part).