Office in House

[The Colonel]

Might be letting myself in for some stick here but what the heck.

Just undertaken a FRA on a stables with staff accomodation not a problem, until I visited the office which is located within the stable owners house. Before we start on the domestic premises issue this office is accessed via a number of rooms in the house with alternate escape route, not only does the owner use this office but they employ a book keeper two days a week to work within the office. Would I be right in including the office within the FRA or is it down to health and safety due to the fact that the office is in a house used normally as a single domestic dwelling.

If it is down to health and safety I still intend to include some "advice" on the office. A bathroom window of the house opens in to the entrance porch of the staff accomodations only exit but the rest appears to be seperated by FR construction.

[nearlythere]

Might be letting myself in for some stick here but what the heck.

Just undertaken a FRA on a stables with staff accomodation not a problem, until I visited the office which is located within the stable owners house. Before we start on the domestic premises issue this office is accessed via a number of rooms in the house with alternate escape route, not only does the owner use this office but they employ a book keeper two days a week to work within the office. Would I be right in including the office within the FRA or is it down to health and safety due to the fact that the office is in a house used normally as a single domestic dwelling.

If it is down to health and safety I still intend to include some "advice" on the office. A bathroom window of the house opens in to the entrance porch of the staff accomodations only exit but the rest appears to be seperated by FR construction.

According to some on the site this is a dwelling regardless of what happens in it. The RRO therefore does not apply.

[val]

Colonel,

My approach would be the the FSO applies when the office is being used as a place of employment, (the bookkeeper) and therefore should be included in the FRA. Whether anything additional needs to be done, (fire warning, etc)  is the beauty of risk assessment.

This approach is similar to that used with childminders...the Order applies when the premises is not being used for purely domestic purposes.

[kurnal]

If persons are employed to work in an office in a house then clearly the Fire Safety order applies because the office is most certainly not domestic premises unless the staff are employed supporting the household, eg butler, housekeeper.

[Clevelandfire]

A house would also be the butlers or housekeepers workplace so I say the RRO would apply anyway

[nearlythere]

A house would also be the butlers or housekeepers workplace so I say the RRO would apply anyway

Not according to the great and good on this site. Some have said that the RRO does not apply in the case of a carer because it takes place in a dwelling. Same principle as your butler and housekeeper I would have thought.

[PhilB]

A house would also be the butlers or housekeepers workplace so I say the RRO would apply anyway

Not in my opinion Clevelandfire, a butler or housekeeper does not make a house a non domstic premises, the Order would not apply in that case. The guidance that was given in circular 28 for the Workplace Regs is still relevant.....

"6. The meaning given to the term "domestic premises" under the Fire Regulations is that given to it by section 53(1) of the 1974 Act – essentially premises occupied as a [single] private dwelling. Such are excepted from the term "workplace", so that the Fire Regulations do not cover those employees who are homeworkers or who work as a domestic servant in a private dwelling. Nor do they cover employees who are district nurses, telephone engineers, gas fitters, etc. when they are working in excepted premises. Also, the Fire Regulations do not cover voluntary workers (i.e. those without a contract of employment or apprenticeship as defined in paragraph 5 above). They do, however, apply to any part of residential premises, including hotels, nursing homes, houses in multiple occupation and like premises, which are used in common by the occupants of more than one private dwelling, where caretakers and similar persons, being employees, work, as well as to any part of premises where so-called "domestic" staff are employed, such as the kitchens of hostels or sheltered accommodation. That is to say, any part of residential premises, other than premises occupied as a private dwelling, in which employees work is a workplace. "

In my opinion of course.

[Clevelandfire]

A house would also be the butlers or housekeepers workplace so I say the RRO would apply anyway

Not in my opinion Clevelandfire, a butler or housekeeper does not make a house a non domstic premises, the Order would not apply in that case. The guidance that was given in circular 28 for the Workplace Regs is still relevant.....

"6. The meaning given to the term "domestic premises" under the Fire Regulations is that given to it by section 53(1) of the 1974 Act – essentially premises occupied as a [single] private dwelling. Such are excepted from the term "workplace", so that the Fire Regulations do not cover those employees who are homeworkers or who work as a domestic servant in a private dwelling. Nor do they cover employees who are district nurses, telephone engineers, gas fitters, etc. when they are working in excepted premises. Also, the Fire Regulations do not cover voluntary workers (i.e. those without a contract of employment or apprenticeship as defined in paragraph 5 above). They do, however, apply to any part of residential premises, including hotels, nursing homes, houses in multiple occupation and like premises, which are used in common by the occupants of more than one private dwelling, where caretakers and similar persons, being employees, work, as well as to any part of premises where so-called "domestic" staff are employed, such as the kitchens of hostels or sheltered accommodation. That is to say, any part of residential premises, other than premises occupied as a private dwelling, in which employees work is a workplace. "

In my opinion of course.

Yes in "your opinion" Sunny Jim !

I concede defeat there. You sound like a chappie who knows what he is talking about and that bit of technical stuff you just wrote looks pretty plausable.

[The Colonel]

Lady and Gents sorry for the delay in replying but been out and about for 3 days. Thanks for your replies and Val, Kurnal and Phill I agree that for the time that the office is being used by a none family member (empolye) they are relevant persons and as such I have to consider them in the risk assessment. I am concerned with  those in the premises and ensuring thier safety whilst they are there anything less and I am not doing my job correctly.

Gentlmen dont give up these healthy debates and exchanges of opinion it all leads to all of use thinking about what we do that much more.

Cheers

[lingmoor]

I have just been asked to carry out a FRA on a house that also doubles as an office with the house owner and her business partner friend working in there. They are Bookkeepers.

Are we saying this is still domestic? I thought it was. If so I'll direct her to the Fire Authority for a Home Fire Safety Check

[Mike Buckley]

I would go for domestic. If it is a partnership with only the two of them, there are no employees, ergo the RRO does not apply. Even so as there are less than 5 of them the arrangements do not need to be recorded anyway.

[PhilB]

I would go for domestic. If it is a partnership with only the two of them, there are no employees, ergo the RRO does not apply. Even so as there are less than 5 of them the arrangements do not need to be recorded anyway.

I agree that the order probably doesn't apply but that is not because there are no employees, employment status has nothing to do with the Order. You may employ a butler but your house would still be a domestic premises and outside the scope of the Order.

[Mike Buckley]

I disagree about the employment. The Order is constantly referring to employees and as you have pointed out the guidance from circular 28 specifically exempts employees who work as domestic servants. As I understand it domestic servants should have been counted as employees under the RRO but they were exempted by the previous guidance. Therefore Lord Toff can have a whole army of bulters, cooks, maids, valets etc and the RRO would not apply.

However in the case of a partnership there is no employer and no employees. I have looked at the Enforcement part of the HSE website, which goes into great detail about how to enforce and prosecute under the H&S legislation, and it has the following comment on partnerships:

1) A partnership cannot be prosecuted because it has no legal personality for the purpose of the criminal law.

2) In a standard partnership, each partner is jointly and severally liable for the acts of the partnership.

Where this leaves things I am not sure I suppose it will be up to the courts to decide.

[PhilB]

Mike

You do not have to have employees for the Order to apply. Self-employed business has to comply with the Order. The only difference with regard to employees is if there is an employer, then he must be the responsible person.

The order is not constantly referring to employees, it does so in only a few articles. It does however constantly refer to relevant persons and their relevance is in no way dependent on their employment status.

[messy]

Just out of interest, at what point does a dwelling become a business? I assume it's the proporation of the building put to business use??

I recently had dealings with a former five storey office building converted to a single large townhouse.

The vast majority of the house were put to use as a single dwelling. In addition to all the millionaire nonsense you would expect : pool, staff quarters, bar, cinema and whatnot, there were two fairly large offices and a conference room.

They were all accessable to the dwelling so in theory, I determined, still part of the dwelling(?)

Have I got his right? and if so, how much business needs to be carried on from a dwelling before it's a commercial office and under RR(FS)O?