Fixed hosereels in an office environment

[devon4ever]

Here is my take on this issue, I believe that fixed hose reels are a thing of the past. If they are justified in new-builds, fit a sprinkler system. Where they are fitted in existing premises, they are normally sited in the means of escape, (really handy for wedging open fire/smoke doors that traverse the route of the hose and endagering fire fighters that enter post evacuation of personnel). On a current H&S issue, - Estate managers I have consulted with, consider the hose reels to be a haven of legionella as they are not a system subjected to "running water" on a regular basis, cost effectiveness of maintenance compared to portable fire fighting equipment is definatley something to be considered. Replace a hose reel with 2 X 9 litre water extinguishers, (dont jump down my throat and say what about CO2 etc, the hose reel should be risk assessed for the potential fire classification in the first place), and you have sufficient first-aid fire fighting media to secure your means of escape. (As mentioned previously in this thread, give a hero a 9 litre extinguisher and eventually he or she will exhaust the unit and either extinguish the fire or leave, give them a hose reel and you may be comitting them to a protracted incident of which they have no training), call me old fashioned, but I was brought up in the era of hose reels in most commercial buildings, but with experience, I can justify they have had their day. I always advocate that there is no regulation or requirement in current UK law for any person in the workplace, (save fire fighters), to tackle a fire, (unless it is blocking your means of eascape), the requirement is to raise the alarm, call the emergency services and get out. On an operational note, if fire fighters have entered a building on fire and havent brought any means of fire fighting media with them, (HP hose reel or jet) then you are sadly lacking in your DORA, to those old-smoke eaters amongst us, may I ask a question - would you trust your colleagues or your own life to the output or continued supply of a fixed hose reel that you have never tested or used?

[Chris Houston]

I always advocate that there is no regulation or requirement in current UK law for any person in the workplace, (save fire fighters), to tackle a fire, (unless it is blocking your means of eascape), the requirement is to raise the alarm, call the emergency services and get out.

Agreed, neither is there an obligation to help people in danger or to administer first aid to injured people.  But the reality is that people do.  And thank goodness, all fires start as small fires and if everyone walked away from the smoking ashtray, the burning bin or the box of tissues on fire and let it develop to engulf their building, destroy their business, put their neighbours in danger, destory the environment.....then it would be a weird world we lived in.

Essex FRS told me that 90% of fires are put out without any fire brigade involvement.  Of course they are, I've burnt my dinner, but I didn't run out my house and start evacuating nieghbours, I threw it into the sink and poured water on it.  That is what people will do.  People do tackle fires (thank goodness)!  So let's train them how to do it properly and let them know when to give up.  But this concept that we will see tiny fire and not tackle it is ridiculous.

[Galeon]

Chris , did they say that 90% is domestic and workplace  or a combined figure ?
It would be interesting to know what % of calls  FRS attends that where they have had not to actually deal with a fire in relation to actually extinguishing it.

[Chris Houston]

I think they meant all fires.  I think 90% is too low.  But nobody keeps records of fires that occured and we put out by the public within a few seconds.

[Mar62]

Anthony B. Glad you mentioned high rise in London. I have carried out a FRA in large building in the Strand and I also now look after the account. They have 93 hose reels, it is a completely office type environment except for the basement area (storage, archive etc). We are trying to get the hose reels removed as they are now getting to the end of life and are in need of replacement. We cant get the like for like replacement and so have to have retro fit brackets made, welded in place etc etc, alll costs a lot of money. Fire extinguishers are also in position!! The local fire officer and building control have both written to the building manager almost demanding they remain in place. Firstly can they do this and secondly any advice? I am aware of section 20, but would appreciate any suggestions.

[nearlythere]

Anthony B. Glad you mentioned high rise in London. I have carried out a FRA in large building in the Strand and I also now look after the account. They have 93 hose reels, it is a completely office type environment except for the basement area (storage, archive etc). We are trying to get the hose reels removed as they are now getting to the end of life and are in need of replacement. We cant get the like for like replacement and so have to have retro fit brackets made, welded in place etc etc, alll costs a lot of money. Fire extinguishers are also in position!! The local fire officer and building control have both written to the building manager almost demanding they remain in place. Firstly can they do this and secondly any advice? I am aware of section 20, but would appreciate any suggestions.

Enquire of the FSO and BC if it is a statutory requirement for them to remain. If so, under what legislation. Are they demanding, advising or requesting they remain?

[devon4ever]

Essex FRS told me that 90% of fires are put out without any fire brigade involvement.  Of course they are, I've burnt my dinner, but I didn't run out my house and start evacuating nieghbours, I threw it into the sink and poured water on it.  That is what people will do.  People do tackle fires (thank goodness)!  So let's train them how to do it properly and let them know when to give up.  But this concept that we will see tiny fire and not tackle it is ridiculous.

Chris, I also agree that people will and should, (if safe to do so), extinguish a small fire, but I maintain that unless legislation changes, try and sue the ass off someone who walks away from a fire in the workplace! Can I ask what you would consider to be sufficient training for someone in the workplace would be to tackle a fire, do we teach them about fire growth, behaviour of smoke & noxiuos gases, do we regularly refressh the training to a recognised NVQ level, are they paid extra for the dangerous task; why not retro-fit breathing apperatus in the corridors, sorry  to be pedantic Chris, but the task is so onerous and without clear parameters that the existing advice to employees should remain in my opinion. Experience has shown me that the majority of employees when asked about fire training when I carry out an FRA, reply, "yes, the chap who services the extinguisher gave us a quick talk on the subject" hardly robust is it, (however, having said that, I must admit that I find workplaces that have bespoke Fire Wardens etc are more dedicated and trained with specific duties for the task).

Secondly, I mistrust statistics, enquire with Essex FRS on the % of fires "Out on arrival" following attendance and that 90% will be different, remember the poster and TV media campaign "Get Out - Stay Out" sponsored by FRS all around the UK?

Finally, I once read a government statistic that qoutes 20% of all fatalities on the UK roads are caused by drivers under the influence of drugs and / or alcohol, that basically tells me that 80% are caused by law-abiding sober ones, funny old thing statistics!!!

[Tonyn]

All
Many thanks for all the responses and detailed advice.  I'll be advising the boss that we remove the hoses.

With regards to the walking away from the fire.  I too find it goes against the grain, having spent 32 years in the RN where every man and his dog are trained and expected to tackle a fire or become part of a larger F/F team regardless of how much it escalates.  The bottom line is however that in this litigation culture we have inherited, if I were to tell all new employees that they would be expected to tackle a small fire, I would need to train each and every one, hence the formal company line and the use of Marshals.  Discussions held off the record, however, may differ somewhat.

Thanks again for all the help; I'm sure I'll be back.

Tony

[devon4ever]

Tonyn, glad we have been of some help, I was an ex stoker in the 70's & 80's I know where you are coming from..........

Chris I almost forgot to ask.........

remember that fire that took out the Firenet Forum data room on APRIL THE 1ST, did it start as a small fire and did you attempt to put it out before you raised the alarm.....sorry mate it just had be done!!

[Chris Houston]

To answer the points:

I am not qualified to suggest what training people should be given.  

I don't think litigation is the real problem.  It will tend to be your insurer who would have to foot the litigation bill and and property damage bill and I know what their stance will be "train them to fight the fire" and I'm not aware of any circumstances where someone has sued their employer in such circumstances.

Part of me isn't worried, as I know that people will tackle these small fires anyway, so my point is - let's train them to do it safely.  That most have had a once over from the extinguisher bloke only backs up my point.

[nearlythere]

All
Many thanks for all the responses and detailed advice.  I'll be advising the boss that we remove the hoses.

With regards to the walking away from the fire.  I too find it goes against the grain, having spent 32 years in the RN where every man and his dog are trained and expected to tackle a fire or become part of a larger F/F team regardless of how much it escalates.  The bottom line is however that in this litigation culture we have inherited, if I were to tell all new employees that they would be expected to tackle a small fire, I would need to train each and every one, hence the formal company line and the use of Marshals.  Discussions held off the record, however, may differ somewhat.

Thanks again for all the help; I'm sure I'll be back.

Tony

Difference with the RN was and is that the purpose for firefighting is to save the ship even at the cost of the crew.

[Mar62]

Nearlythere. I believe they are demanding they remain in place due to the length of the building?

[devon4ever]

I would assume that the application of the BS 5306 series would take account of risk, length and square areas of floors etc to determine numbers of fire fighting equipment units, (extinguishers not necessarily hose reels) to address this, maybe its just me, but I do not consider the lenghth of a corridor or floor to determine the requirement for a hose reel, please feel free to enlighten me if I'm misguided on this issue, (I still refer to a hose reel being deployed and left in place should it traverse through a fire/smoke separation door will compromise the integrity of a protected route)

[Mar62]

I totally agree with you. I cant see where they are coming from with it. Thanks for your replies.

[kurnal]

This is pure speculation and may be way off beam but I wonder if hosereels in high rise buildings in London came about in the  days pre building Regs? Perhaps for buildings that nowadays would have needed firefighting shafts, lifts or dry risers? Perhaps in some circumstances hosereels were allowed in lieu?

If so you can understand a reluctance to sanction their removal, although firefighting has moved on and it is more than likely that any operational procedure would require charged and tested high pressure reels as a mimimum before making entry.

If I am right,  taking into account the absence of any other facilities for firefightings, it is understandable that the brigade may be reluctant to sanction their removal hoping for a riser or something instead?

if this is total gibberish please forgive me.