Apollo radio kit

[Davro]

Has anybody out there used the apollo radio kit before, in the next week or so i will be installing this kit but i have little experience with it. (Went to apollo demostration but they were more interested in selling it than showing it). Running from a morley panel with a standard apollo loop system.

[Wiz]

I also haven't used in yet, but I've been keeping my eye on the development of this product for a while. I always felt there was a market for this type of thing and after Apollo's previous version, that didn't work very well, I know that they have pulled out all the stops to make sure this version will not be a failure. Evidently Apollo are using EMS wireless equipment in their product so hopefully this should be a good move.
Most importantly, I understood that the Apollo Xpander product would only be sold to those who have had training in it's use and, critically, only those who had access to and could use the signal strength test equipment. Davro says that he has only had a 'sales demo' - which is a bit worrying.
Apart from the signal strength testing, it should all be pretty straightforward according to my discussions with Aploo.  Upto 15 devices to a wireless equipment interface which is wired to the loop. All items allocated a programme address as normal.
Obviously, panel manufacturer's firmware should preferably be updated to include this new 'device type' so that it recognises all the appropriate fault signals. I don't know if Morley have done this yet or if any panel manufacturers have done so yet. The good news is that sometimes a new type of device will still be recognised as a vaild device type and so display all faults etc as a general fault at the very least. I would still check with Morley/Apollo as to how the control panel will respond to all the different analogue values gnerated by the xpander devices.

[Davro]

Thanks for the reply i went to a day course in portsmouth to see how it work. I asked questions but all they can say it will be cheaper than ems kit and at the moment they were testing the kit in a castle in scotland? To me it looked almost/same as a ems detector could it be a copy?

[Wiz]

Thanks for the reply i went to a day course in portsmouth to see how it work. I asked questions but all they can say it will be cheaper than ems kit and at the moment they were testing the kit in a castle in scotland? To me it looked almost/same as a ems detector could it be a copy?

I find it amazing that a one day course was only totally sales orientated. This is quite the reverse of the training they said all Xpander users would have to have before buying the product.

This product and the EMS product are quite different. EMS is a whole system. Apollo's is a add-on to a wired addressable system to provide wireless in small areas of an otherwise wired system. I'm pretty sure that the EMS system would work out cheaper than trying to install Apollo Xpander everywhere in a building. Of course adding Apollo Xpander interface to a small area of an otherwise wired loop system is cheaper than adding an EMS control panel and interfacing it through Apollo interfaces to a wired loop system. The Apollo Xpander is not meant to be an alternative to an EMS system.

I understand Apollo are using the tried and tested EMS technology in their kit but the Xpander is mainly their own product. Apollo have much more experience in fire detectors and wired addressable equipment than EMS.

I understand that the Apollo Xpander has been tested for at least the past year in-house and in the field and I would be surprised if it is not working perfectly well before it is allowed to be sold

I would strongly advise that you talk Apollo techinical for full advice before commencing your installation. Apollo can also almost certainly advise you how your Morley panel will respond to the various analogue values generated by the Xpander interface.

[Davro]

Sorry forgot to say this will be a add on to a system and because of the fabric of the building they would like a wireless kit to be installed.  90% of time i fit morley or hochiki kit.

[arguendo]

By way of comment on this topic, and others relating to wireless fire systems and loop interfaces.

Apollo loop interface (and other fire alarm loop interfaces) all operate on 868MHz radio frequency. The EMS FirePoint panel operates on entirely different UHF/VHF frequencies.  Just because Xpander is manufactured by EMS, do not assume you will get the same range between an Apollo device and the loop interface, as you can get between an EMS device and the EMS FirePoint controller.

Those of you familliar with wireless intruder panels will know that they also operate on 868MHz, and their performance/range in anything other than a 3/4 bedroom house can be very patchy.

Commercial/Industrial buildings (the addressable fire marketplace) by their design and construction can pose challanges for wireless equipment operating on 868MHz, eg steel reinforced concrete walls, floors and stairwells, lift shafts, electronic noise and radio interference generated by electrical plant and equipment.

The Xpander system is extremely well engineered, and I understand it has been extensively field tested. A radio survey test from the proposed location of each device back to the location of the loop interface is essential. As long as it is used for the purposes for which it was intended, ie connecting a limited number of wireless devices to an existing loop in close proximity, you will not have a problem.

[wozzer38]

I would take issue with the description of the training given at Apollo. All of the sessions held there include a powerpoint presentation, a detailed perusal of the Commissioning Guide and Site Survey instructions, then a workshop forum in which the engineers are invited to log devices onto an interface and have a general 'play' with the equipment.

If Davro did not recieve all these things then I would be suprised. However, the other thing to remember is that the system is so 'simple' anyway, and the engineer actually takes away a 'pack' of information to support him, so after recieving all of this then no further advice in setting the system up should be required. Technical Support staff at Apollo are always available on the telephone or by email through the website for further assistance.

If Davro requires further training i suggest he contacts Apollo again to request this.

Incidentally the XPander detector looks nothing like a current EMS device!!! I wonder if this chap has the first clue what he is talking about and would be slightly worried if he were installing a system in my building!!

[Wiz]

..... I wonder if this chap has the first clue what he is talking about and would be slightly worried if he were installing a system in my building!!

Hold on Wozzer. This is a pretty harsh statement. Davro was only stating his personal view of things, which he should be allowed to do on a forum. Unless you are the guy at Apollo who gave him the training that he felt wasn't very comprehensive, then I think your comments are a little OTT. I note that it's your first post so maybe you haven't yet gauged the generally friendly nature of this forum!

[wozzer38]

Apologies Wiz if that was harsh, just not my experience of training at Apollo. All the training sessions I have attended there have been very 'technical' biased, they are all free and include a great lunch. Recommend them to anyone:)

[Benzerari]

Apologies Wiz if that was harsh, just not my experience of training at Apollo. All the training sessions I have attended there have been very 'technical' biased, they are all free and include a great lunch. Recommend them to anyone:)

Thanks Wozzer about the details of Expander, I am interesting to get free training from Apollo, so any contact details would be grate..

[wozzer38]

Hi Benzerari, as far as i'm aware training is only available through their account customers. My advice would be, if you have an account speak to the account manager, if not go through your distributor of Apollo equipment. I went through Gardiners Fire Division. : )

[David Rooney]

Those of you familliar with wireless intruder panels will know that they also operate on 868MHz, and their performance/range in anything other than a 3/4 bedroom house can be very patchy.

Have not had the Xpander training yet, but hav heard good things

My concern would be using the Morley panel.... they seem to be suffering a bit lately and have a few "issues".

Regarding the 868 frequency, you are right, range is nowhere near as good as EMS, but then EMS won't comply with EN54-25 when it comes in, so they have got a bit of catching up to do.

I did a survey for the Argus Vega protocol hybrid system (868MHz) in an 11 storey office (30m x 30m ish footprint, typical concrete fabrication) and was getting good signal strengths through 3 floors and was generally impressed.

[Benzerari]

Those of you familliar with wireless intruder panels will know that they also operate on 868MHz, and their performance/range in anything other than a 3/4 bedroom house can be very patchy.

Have not had the Xpander training yet, but hav heard good things

My concern would be using the Morley panel.... they seem to be suffering a bit lately and have a few "issues".

Regarding the 868 frequency, you are right, range is nowhere near as good as EMS, but then EMS won't comply with EN54-25 when it comes in, so they have got a bit of catching up to do.

I did a survey for the Argus Vega protocol hybrid system (868MHz) in an 11 storey office (30m x 30m ish footprint, typical concrete fabrication) and was getting good signal strengths through 3 floors and was generally impressed.

Thanks for this news David, using expander with morley or avanced,... in some situation would save us a lot of money, instead of replacing the system by EMS 5000 which is good but still too expansive!

[David Rooney]

Thanks for this news David, using expander with morley or avanced,... in some situation would save as a lot of money, instead of replacing the system by EMS 5000 which is good but still too expansive!

Absolutey right.

Where possible we are using the hybrid systems, have to say the survey is very important and much more time consuming than an "EMS" survey. The equipment used and the interpretation of the info is quite mind numbing...!!

Programming devices on is also a bit of an art....

My only quibble is that the suppliers do like to push the "expanders" ie. units you can plug in to the mains in order to extend range. Personally I'm not a lover of this idea due to maintenance issues etc, particularly when electrical maintenance is undertaken and various boards can be shutdown in an office block and suddenly you have lost half a system....

[wozzer38]

My biggest problem with the Argus Spectrum is the back-up battery which is lithium and is like a watch battery. If the primary cell fails, how can we be sure the back up cell is going to work correctly. Also there are many disposal issues with lithiums.

They are lower cost but you may possibly pay the price in the longer term with these devices.

You are right about the range. 868 is less far reaching, however it can be more robust than 173 and as you say the latest EN54 standard will eventually see 173 disappear.