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Author Topic: Access for fire appliances  (Read 13256 times)

Offline boroboy

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Access for fire appliances
« on: April 30, 2008, 09:52:59 AM »
Anyone out there got any ideas how to solve an access problem?  I have a client with a narrow piece of land and a proposed development which has an access road of approx 35m in length.  Part B requires a turning circle so that fire appliances do not have to reverse more than 20m.  It does not seem possible to put in a turning circle.  The client does not own the land on one side and the other side is the proposed development.  Any ideas out there?
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Offline wee brian

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Access for fire appliances
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2008, 11:53:39 AM »
Depends whats being built.

A turning circle becomes important when there are lots of appliances (assuming the FRS hasnt sold them all)

If its just a house then it really doesnt matter, if it's a factory then it will.

If an FRS driver can't reverse a vehicle 35m then he shouldn't be driving.
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Offline jokar

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Access for fire appliances
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2008, 12:03:03 PM »
The 20 metre distance came from the fact that a horse would not back up more than that distance so it is a quite arbitary figure.  You should be able to risk assess that away.
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Offline Mike Buckley

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Access for fire appliances
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2008, 12:43:57 PM »
Go and have a word with the local Fire And Rescue Service, see what they think after all they are the ones who have to use it.
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Offline Dragonmaster

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Access for fire appliances
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2008, 02:58:36 PM »
If it can't be resolved, you may want to consider sprinklers as compensation (the appliance doesn't have to get/out as far or as quick)
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"Never do today what will become someone's else's responsibility tomorrow"

Offline boroboy

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Access for fire appliances
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2008, 04:03:56 PM »
Its a block of home/work units.  I agree about the driving more than 20m, however Part B says different.  I'm making an appointment to see the local F&RS.  By the way as a former appliance driver myself, I could'nt agree more!
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Offline boroboy

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Access for fire appliances
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2008, 04:19:50 PM »
PS. Yes I had considered sprinklers as well.
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Offline wee brian

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Access for fire appliances
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2008, 04:31:03 PM »
Sledgehammer and nut.  AD B is just guidance.
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Offline John Webb

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Access for fire appliances
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2008, 10:39:16 AM »
Rather than a complete turning circle, is it possible to provide a short arm off the road before the dead end that an appliance could go past, reverse into and drive forward and out - ie give it room to do a three-point turn?
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John Webb
Consultant on Fire Safety, Diocese of St Albans
(Views expressed are my own)

Offline wee brian

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« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2008, 11:04:45 AM »
Or maybe a passing space. so the ambulance can get in/out?
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Offline nearlythere

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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2008, 09:22:03 AM »
Quote from: Dragonmaster
If it can't be resolved, you may want to consider sprinklers as compensation (the appliance doesn't have to get/out as far or as quick)
I'm very sorry but I just cannot believe that some people are asking for a sprinkler system to be considered as an alternative because a driver cannot reverse an appliance an additional 15M. The main purpose of a Fire Appliance is to get to the scene as quickly as possible and deal with an incident. When the emergency is over they will have plenty of time to reverse the appliance back onto the main road.

Sometimes I wonder what is on some people's Xmas pressy wish list.
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Offline CivvyFSO

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Access for fire appliances
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2008, 09:43:09 AM »
Quote from: jokar
The 20 metre distance came from the fact that a horse would not back up more than that distance so it is a quite arbitary figure.  You should be able to risk assess that away.
Many people, probably much more qualified to make these decisions than you or I, contributed to the 2006 ADB. Why did they choose to keep the turning circle in if it is not actually required or helpful and it can be just simply be 'risk assessed away'?

I dislike the idea of simply risk assessing something away. If the process of risk assessment proves that something is not required then that is fair enough. But to intend to get rid of something that would generally be required just by being a bit of a smart arse with a few excuses and a bit of 'management' on paper, (That is not directed at anyone in particular, just a generalisation) is not a good solution in my eyes.

Wee Brians and John Webbs suggestions seem much more in keeping with meeting the functional requirements.
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Offline Tom Sutton

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« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2008, 10:31:58 AM »
Quote from: CivvyFSO
Many people, probably much more qualified to make these decisions than you or I, contributed to the 2006 ADB. Why did they choose to keep the turning circle in if it is not actually required or helpful and it can be just simply be 'risk assessed away'?
Civvy do you think its required, Jokar is most probably right, it would not surprise me.
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All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline boroboy

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Access for fire appliances
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2008, 10:53:48 AM »
Thanks for all your comments guys.  I was aware of the reason 20m was the figure and it is obviously a little ridiculous in this day and age.   I had also thought of the options mentioned thank you.  It is not possible to put in any sort of additional slip/road/way as the site is VERY narrow.  I might have to persuade the Architect to lose a few parking spaces.
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Offline CivvyFSO

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Access for fire appliances
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2008, 10:59:46 AM »
I feel that the guidance suggests 20m, the distance here is 75% over that, the removal of it should be subject to more justification than simply "risk assess it away".

http://www.e-lindsey.gov.uk/environment/planning/building-control/building-control-guides/upload/037%20Fire%20Appliance%20Access.pdf
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