Evacuation at elderly persons home

[lingmoor]

Hi,

when I was in the fire and rescue service I remember there was a policy in which the elderly people stayed within a fire resisting comapartment until the staff had located the source of the alarm and if the panel was registering a fault  then the residents  would stay in the building and the fire service would already have been summoned. This would not be a 'stay put in your room' policy, but all together, say in a community room, this would enable quick evacuation should a fire be discovered and also alleviate the necessity for elderly people to go out in inclement weather initially.

I also came across unbelievable scenarios where EPH staff would think it was ok for disabled people to stay in a 'refuge' til the fire service arrived to rescue them, even if the place was on fire!!

What I want to know is, since I left the job some time ago,  if these policies have changed within fire services or what your experiences are in your particular service and what is your thinking on evacuation of elderly persons homes. Thanks

[Midland Retty]

Hi Lingmoor

The procedure you desribe is known as phased evacuation, and is acceptable.

As you correctly point out however leaving less abled residents in refuge awaiting rescue is not.

Unfortunately this is still a common problem on my local patch. That siad the message that the fire service effects "rescues" and does not initiate or assist in  "evacuation" is slowly filtering through. Unfortunately there has always been confusion with those terms amongst care home operators and their staff.

Im afraid that in  care home with 30 residents the Commision for Social Care Inspection (CSCI)allows a staffing ratio of 2 staff on duty at night. I dont think that is a sufficient number to deal with a phased evacuation properly / effectively.

[Wiz]

Hi,

when I was in the fire and rescue service I remember there was a policy in which the elderly people stayed within a fire resisting comapartment until the staff had located the source of the alarm and if the panel was registering a fault  then the residents  would stay in the building and the fire service would already have been summoned.........

Lingmoor, do you mean fire and not fault?

[Mike Buckley]

Being cynical the staff evacuate the residents to a refuge and the fire service resces them from there when the flames start licking round their nether regions.

Seriously, the RRO calls for emergency procedures to be followed in the case of fire and for the information to be given to all employees. If the emergency procedures and or the information is unsatisfactory then the Fire Authority should take action. At the end of the day when we start carrying the bodies out, some lawyer will be standing up and saying "The Fire Service visited and knew about it and did nothing".

Fine the CSCI will be quoted as allowing an inadequate staffing ratio but the FRA will also get a kicking for not highlighting the issue. Cover your backs.

[Midland Retty]

Fine the CSCI will be quoted as allowing an inadequate staffing ratio but the FRA will also get a kicking for not highlighting the issue. Cover your backs.

We do Mike but its not quite as easy as that

As a Fire Authority we cannot comment on staffing levels / numbers.

We can make CSCI aware we have concerns of course, but thats all we can do.

[wee brian]

We definately should comment on staffing levels - just not sure how many is enough.

[Midland Retty]

We definately should comment on staffing levels - just not sure how many is enough.

I agree... just haven't got the legislation

[Mike Buckley]

Agreed you can't say exactly how many are needed, but you can comment that there are not enough and you can comment that the evacuation plan is inadequate..

[johno67]

Why can't the FRA comment on staffing levels?

The FSO gives the RP responsibility for all relevant persons. Their emergency plan must allow for everyone to be evacuated in case of serious and imminent danger (fire), they must have people nominated and trained to carry out an evacuation, so why can't the FRA say for example 'in this case 2 people is unreasonable'?

Certainly under the Workplace Regs the FRA's were more restricted as it only covered employees (unless the employees were prevented from getting out by some other unfortunate soul), but not the FSO, surely?

Page 72 of the Res Care FS Guide says:
'Your risk assessment should identify the number of staff you need to carry out your emergency plan. It follows that where there is a need for staff intervention to carry out your emergency plan, then staff numbers at all times must be sufficient; you should be able to demonstrate to the enforcing authority that you always have sufficient staff to effectively carry out your emergency plan without the assistance of outside agencies (e.g. be a fire drill)'

Pretty succint I think.

Anyway remember you need to get them out of the sub-compartment within 2.5 minutes so they are going to need hundreds of members of staff!!!!! rofl

[nearlythere]

Why can't the FRA comment on staffing levels?

The FSO gives the RP responsibility for all relevant persons. Their emergency plan must allow for everyone to be evacuated in case of serious and imminent danger (fire), they must have people nominated and trained to carry out an evacuation, so why can't the FRA say for example 'in this case 2 people is unreasonable'?

Certainly under the Workplace Regs the FRA's were more restricted as it only covered employees (unless the employees were prevented from getting out by some other unfortunate soul), but not the FSO, surely?

I don't think that the RP, who has ownership of the RA, is going to admit to being understaffed.

[Midland Retty]

Why can't the FRA comment on staffing levels?

The FSO gives the RP responsibility for all relevant persons. Their emergency plan must allow for everyone to be evacuated in case of serious and imminent danger (fire), they must have people nominated and trained to carry out an evacuation, so why can't the FRA say for example 'in this case 2 people is unreasonable'?

Certainly under the Workplace Regs the FRA's were more restricted as it only covered employees (unless the employees were prevented from getting out by some other unfortunate soul), but not the FSO, surely?

I don't think that the RP, who has ownership of the RA, is going to admit to being understaffed.

Absolutely right

It isnt as simple as you think - we've been trying to do this for years now. It gets very political and the brigade normally ends up backing down!

[johno67]

I agree that in a lot of cases that the RP won't admit to being understaffed, but it is up to the FRA to challenge that.

Retty, I agree, same old problem, however the powers are there and use of them will vary from FRA to FRA.

[kurnal]

If care needs can be met with two staff, is it reasonable to expect additional staff on duty just in case theres a fire?

Fire brigades had the chance to influence care home design many times in the past both in the formulation of the old draft guide and the current RRO guidance. What matters is not how many staff there are but how realistic are the expections that are placed on the staff that are available.

Why, in full knowledge of staffing levels that have been largely unchanged since the 1984 care legislation, are fire brigades now saying that two staff are insufficient and 12 bedrooms too many? Why wasn't this flagged up before now?

[johno67]

Under the FP Act care homes were not designated so FRA's could only use section 10 to prohibit, so we carried out inspections as agency work, and under the Workplance Regs only the employees were covered.

The powers are there under the FSO and I believe some Brigades are using them to address this issue

It is clear in the CLG guidance that they should have sufficient trained persons on duty at all times to carry out their evacuation plan (please see my quote above).

I don't think it's reasonable to say that because they haven't been needed in the past that they shouldn't be there.

However I agree it should be based on what those members of staff can reasonably do within the time available.

[nearlythere]

I agree that in a lot of cases that the RP won't admit to being understaffed, but it is up to the FRA to challenge that.

Retty, I agree, same old problem, however the powers are there and use of them will vary from FRA to FRA.

Johno
How can the FRA challenge that? If I was a RP and got assistance from someone to do my RA and it said that more staff was needed I would just copy the RA and leave out or change the bits I didn't like. Who would know?
It is the RPs FRA afterall.