Who deals with the disabled?

[colin todd]

If I were disabled, I would be upset at the idea of being abandonded in a building by my disabled colleagues. You dont have to be a fire safety professional to work that out. And , yes I asked a client last Firday whose crackpot idea (exact words) it was to leave disabled in a  room within the clients building. finally a refuge is NOT a prefectly safe area for people to wait if the fire develops in the building. One day a disabled person is going to be killed by people's lack of plain morality and common sense. If people remember that all the better by being a little offended at being told some basic common sense, then it does no harm for disabled fire safety. Its neither pompous or belittling to ask people to treat disabled people as they would want treated themselves. A number of people I talk to often refer accidentally to a refuge as a ''refuse''. Sometimes I think thats a Freudian slip that almost reveals their attitude to the less fortunate members of what should be a single society.

[Ken Taylor]

Colin; is there any news about your British Standard publication on fire risk assessments (expected December) - and will it have anything to say on this subject?

[Guest]

If I were disabled, I would be upset at the idea of being abandonded in a building by my disabled colleagues. You dont have to be a fire safety professional to work that out. And , yes I asked a client last Firday whose crackpot idea (exact words) it was to leave disabled in a  room within the clients building. finally a refuge is NOT a prefectly safe area for people to wait if the fire develops in the building. One day a disabled person is going to be killed by people's lack of plain morality and common sense. If people remember that all the better by being a little offended at being told some basic common sense, then it does no harm for disabled fire safety. Its neither pompous or belittling to ask people to treat disabled people as they would want treated themselves. A number of people I talk to often refer accidentally to a refuge as a ''refuse''. Sometimes I think thats a Freudian slip that almost reveals their attitude to the less fortunate members of what should be a single society.

We don't disagree Colin, like I said you are right but can we be more tactful toward new posters else we are just going to frighten them off.

At least "Santas little helper" bothered to try and find out more - he/she obviously realises that they are doing something wrong

So lets not get chastise people for asking.

D Rolins
EEPS

[colin todd]

Ken,

As a result of a cock up by BSi it is now delayed until about March. However, in response to your question the draft submitted to BSi calls for all FRAs to record the presence of diabled people. The section on fire warning then calls for the FRa to consider the arrnagements for deaf people. The section on MoE calls for the FRA to consider the arrnagements in place to assist in the evacuation of mobility or sight impaired people.

Mr Rollins, read the initial comment again, It did not contain chastisement. The judge will do that when somebody manages to kill a disabled person by their thoughtlessness. It contained despair at the society in which we live, borne out of extensive experience of disabled evacuation policies and quite frankly attitudes to disabled people ( including one lady on a course -and I quote- ''my husband is a fireman and he says not to risk hurting myself helping any disabled people, just leave them in the building and let the fire brigade get them out'-). And that isnt even the worst.. Many years ago, long before the DDA, I organized a seminar on fire safety for disabled people. I invited a disabled access offer to speak and he was himself disabled. I was thoughtless enough to provisionally call the seminar fire safety for the disabled, which led him to lecture me about how disabled people are PEOPLE and not THE disabled, which was a term he said caused offence. he then proceeded to lecture me at length about the attitudes of society including the then fire community to disabled people. I learned a lot from that talking to, including an appreciation of the very rough deal disabled people have had over the years, and how little the fire world had done at that time to help them. It is sad many years on from then that so many employers still have not the faintest clue about the basics. It is also frustrating that many of our clients voluntarily do a really good job on disabled evac, but that others are still putting disabled people at risk.

[Ken Taylor]

Thanks, Colin. I somehow suspected that it would be too late for Christmas. I was wondering whether it would go into listing possible assisted MoE methods including conversion of existing lifts for evacuation and the controversial suggestion (mentioned above by another respondent) of using ordinary lifts on a risk assessment basis - which seems to be voiced more often these days.

[mark1london]

"record the presence of disabled people". In some cases peoples disbilities, like mine, are not readily obvious to the naked eye.

How do you get round that one? :?

[wee brian]

Ask people

[Guest]

Thats the one wee B. Ken, we can't stray into the area of other standards. Disabled evacuation is a matter for BS 5588-8, so all we can do is ensure in PAS 999 that the matter receives attention in a FRA. PAS 999 is not the right the place to tell people how to do it.

[Ken Taylor]

I take  the point about not using the publication to tell people how to do it - but as solutions can be risk assessment-based (or even risky) I wondered whether this aspect of risk assessment (ie not just the risk of fire but the risks associated with disabled person access and egress) would be addressed.
BS5588-8 seems in need of some updating these days and not widely known or used by persons in control of buildings to say the least!

[colin todd]

Sadly, Ken as usual you are right. (Its not sad you are right, but its sad people dont even read BS 5588-8, which is in itself a bit wishy washy). By the way, just to keep you updated, the number of PAS 999 is to be changed for publication. For reasons as to why, see spearate posting.

[afterburner]

Maybe, Santa's Little Helper, it would be beneficial to explain that the fire brigade cannot guarantee attendance of fire appliances within a specified time period. Whilst we are all used to a number of fire appliances turning up very quickly to our various premises, there could be occasions where such an arrival is seriously compromised.
The Fire Brigades, recognising that they may not get there quickly enough every time, nor with the number of firefighters needed for evacuation of diabled persons, correctly advise that is a management responsibility to create a fire evacuation routine which ensures the safe evacuation of everone. Everyone, every time.
Perhaps if you think of your fire evacuation routine as needing to be independant of fire service assistance you will get to their intended objective.
As far as I am aware, all Scottish Fire Authorities now require this level of managerial fire safety provision.

[colin todd]

.... and if its good in L&B its good anywhere!!!!! (Not that I am biased, its merely that Edinburgh is the centre of the known Universe).

[jasper]

Who do you guys think is reponsible for assessing the evacuation of disabled occupants; the fire risk assessor or the the dda assessor?
The reason I'm asking is that I conducted fra's for a city council and their concert hall (and all others) were assessed by the county council for 'access to facilities' and no mention was made on the evacuation of disabled service users.
Funny enough the councils disabled access officer was asked where his PEP was and he answered ''in my head''

[AnthonyB]

Our DDA assessors deliberately do not cover emergency MoE in their reports as they are not competent in this field - if the client is a service provider or employer in the building and commissions us for FRA work as well then it will be covered by the report by the fire specialist.

Our DDA staff have the required qualification and registration for access assessments, but it appears that this does not require knowledge to be competent for emergency MoE assessment & thus not within their remit