A positive Outcome!

[Donna]

To Whom It Concerns,

I have wrote this post this way, as this particular topic has been followed by a few for the "nearly" 2 years, and I dont really want to repeat details of an already exhausted topic!
So for those who have shown an interest in my ongoing battle.....I am thrilled to announce this!

Firstly, Court business over... In my favour, So Big Smiles!

Secondly, Over a Different matter entirely, (but regarding the same building) I had agreed to meet up with the Fire safety Officer and a Senior, and until the meeting took place, I closed the previous thread Ref "The Locking of A Fire Escape, in a public Building"
This meeting has now taken place, and I had very pleasant meeting and was able to discuss my concerns with the 2 Fire Service gentlemen covering this particular area...
The "Fire Escape" I was referring to, (the locked one) is NOT regarded as a Fire Exit! so thats that, The "FIRE EXIT" sign, that I reffered to in my previous posts, (that was described to me from a friend in the legal proffession) actually refers to a separate "Fire Exit" The Fire Safety Officer showed me a map of the building, and it shows another exit that I previously had not been aware of, (the "friend" in the legal proffession must have thought "this" sign was refering to the "Locked Exit" as both Exits are in Quite close proximity to each other, (So this explans the initial confusion!)
The Correct Fire Exit, consists of 2 seperate sets of stairs (approx 5 or 6 risers in each set) in a fairly wide corridor and then that takes you to the outside, (push bar Fire Door) where one has to then negotiate stairs up to pavement level, as the internal stairs were in fact to the basement!

It has been explained that Wheelchaired persons will have to travel on a "Sunwa" Wheelchair transporter, DOWN the 2 sets of internal stairs, and then UP the outside steps to reach pavement level,
The Fire Safety Officer explained to me that he had previous personal training with this "Sunwa" Wheelchair transporter, and was able to assure me that this piece of equipment is 100% capeable of doing what it says it does, (I therefore have no option than to take this as face value, as I personally have not seen one in action)

(wether or not I would get on it, when it would not neccesarily be a previously trained operator using it, would be another matter)

I was left assured that this building has adequate Fire Exits, as this is the proffessional opinion of the said Fire Officer,
However I agreed to Dissagree on the Unlocking of the more straight forward Exit that I have always refered to as lets face it, this EXIT is actually classed as the MAIN DISABLED ENTRANCE! (as described on the map of the premises)
My logic is, "If" this is the EASIEST route to take Wheelchair users INTO the building, then surely it is obvious that it SHOULD be the EASIEST route for Wheelchair users it get OUT ? (this is my own personal opinion)

So going back to my original complaint 2 years ago...I had a full apology that things should have happened more Quickly, Apology Gracefully accepted,

It was MY original complaint that prompted the "SUNWA" Wheelchair transporter, to be ordered and delivered to the premises (how on earth they would have coped with disabled on the Stairs to the basement beforehand, I'll never know)
So Im pleased that my complaint generated an improvement!
The Lighting was significantly improved up to meet current legislation, (even in the areas of the building that ONLY the staff use..eg Kitchens)
So if that has prevented a future accident them Im also pleased with that!

And on a final note, in general discussion with the Fire Safety Officers, they learnt that "the" Fire Exit sign (signing to the correct Exit) which was described to me by them as being very very prominent!!!! .....CANNOT be seen by a person in a wheelchair, whilst they are surrounded by standing persons!  If a person in a wheelchair, has persons standing all around them, then they can ONLY see the ceiling!
Hence me not knowing, and not seeing any reference to any signage on my original visit!
So I hope this info can help anyone with future positioning of Fire Exit Signs,
Are they high enough to be seen by permenantly seated persons?

I,d like to say a massive thankyou to all of you that have given advice and to all who have given fantastic advice off this forum, (you will all know who you are)

Anything you ever want to ask regarding "Disabled related" topics...Dont hesitate, just ask!
Donna

[Fishy]

Mmmm...

Regulation 14 of the RR(FS)O requires:

"(2) The following requirements must be complied with in respect of premises where necessary (whether due to the features of the premises, the activity carried on there, any hazard present or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons—

(a) emergency routes and exits must lead as directly as possible to a place of safety;

(b) in the event of danger, it must be possible for persons to evacuate the premises as quickly and as safely as possible;"

Note the "as possible" in both clauses - this is a pretty powerful requirement; my view would be that if there is a potential escape route that provides level egress then that's what must be used, rather than making the wheelchair user hang around; transfer to the stairclimber etc, etc.  I've not seen the layout of the building, of course, so this might not apply in the particular building under discussion, but nevertheless that's the test that should be applied.

In my view this issue is one of the biggest that faces the fire engineering profession; as more and more buildings, both new and existing, become (quite rightly) accessible the challenge of providing adequate means of escape for those who cannot use stairs, either quickly or at all, in a credible and robust manner will become ever more important.  There is a great deal of ignorance and misunderstanding regarding how this can best be dealt with.

[kurnal]

Congratulations Donna on a successful outcome and well done for standing your ground.

The business about the exits sounds a bit of a face saving exercise to be honest. Will be doing some research into the sunwa thing because thats a new one on me too.

Is it one of these?
http://www.reha-mobil.com/cms/content/view/115/240/lang,en/

Be interesting to know if you tried it out and what you thought of it, though I think you have said before your chair is powered?

[nearlythere]

Yes, well done. The escape door signage is a bit of a fob though. If signage indicates to the average person on a Clapham omnibus that a particular door or route is an escape door or escape route then they must be so. If this is not the case then the signage is giving the wrong information which is contrary to the purpose.

You should remember that entrance doors are not always escape doors as well hence the need for good unambiguous signage.

[Donna]

To "Fishy"  The (in my opinion as a wheelchair user) "Locked" exit, but Main Wheelchair entrance! does have a stairway of approx 6 or 7 risers along the corridor, but DOES have a Wheelchair Stannah lift that has a power back up so can be used in power failure, and then leads straight onto the pavement without further delay.
It is locked as the building is used as a Non custodial Court Monday to Friday, and the Magistrates have their Robing room on this route, and want it locked for security, I suggested to the Fire Officers, this question, "Cant the whole corridor be unlocked for quick easy INDEPENDANT evacuation of a wheelchair user, and have the private room/rooms (off the corridor) locked by security combination locks, as Quick emergency evacuation should be higher priority than a very mild security risk?  (being the said "access" to a robe room)

Answer, The Tenants of the building have the right to lock this corridor for whatever reason they like, as the other Fire exits are passed as adequate! (One being the front stepped entrance, and the Fire Exit (with 3 sets of stairs) I refer to in my first post)
So thats that!
So, I argued the point that at the weekends, this building is used for weddings and craft fairs, etc, and asked,  "Ok, so why cant this more direct route be Opened up at times when the building is not being used as a court"
I was told, "If they want to leave it locked....they can if they want to"
(the Court Services Lease the "space" from the Council...the building is old and is Council owned)
I did my best, but if the Fire Service are positive that this building has safe exits, as a non-proffessional, I really cant do anything other than to accept this fact.

To Kurnal, ...Cheers Kurnal,  as I said above, I did my best, and DID achieve some good, if not doing ALL that I intended doing....(I am Exhausted actually...Its been darned hard work)

The Wheelchair transporter in your "link" doesnt seem to be as robust as the one that has been described to me, (my actions had it installed to the premises, but I have not actually seen it in the flesh)
The Fire Safety officer, (when I asked him) said, "Yes, it is strong enough for your chair to go on!", I asked "even for my 100kg Powerchair to go on?" He Replied "Yes, your whole chair stays in an upright position at all times, Ive used one in training, and its Top of it's class, it's an expensive piece of kit"

So thats all the info I have on it, Im afraid, just a personal Guarantee from a Fire Safety Officer, that it does, what it says it does...transport wheelchairs up and down stairs!

The only thing that hasn't been checked is...Are the Council Staff able to master it? who knows?

To nearlythere.... Sorry I may not of explained as clearly as I should have....The Fire Exit sign that IS signed. (even though it cannot be seen by a seated person surronded by standing people) ..Is a Fire Exit, someone "thought" it was to the door that I entranced through, but it wasn't! So the Exit is signed correctly.

The door that I personally would prefer to exit from is NOT a fire exit so therefore CAN be locked...I would just prefer that THIS one to be the designated Fire Exit, as it has a wheelchair stannah lift in the corridor, and someone like me could get out independantly without involving a third party...If it wasn't locked, that is!

[Wiz]

.........And on a final note, in general discussion with the Fire Safety Officers, they learnt that "the" Fire Exit sign (signing to the correct Exit) which was described to me by them as being very very prominent!!!! .....CANNOT be seen by a person in a wheelchair, whilst they are surrounded by standing persons!  If a person in a wheelchair, has persons standing all around them, then they can ONLY see the ceiling!
Hence me not knowing, and not seeing any reference to any signage on my original visit!
So I hope this info can help anyone with future positioning of Fire Exit Signs,
Are they high enough to be seen by permenantly seated persons?........

Donna, how high should the signs be positioned so that they can be seen from a wheelchair when people are standing around the wheelchair?
Is it not fair to say that if the wheelchair was surrounded by people standing very closely then the only place would be to position the signs on the ceiling?
And wouldn't they then need to be everywhere on the ceiling so that they could be seen from every area?
And what if the person in the wheelchair had a particular disability that stopped them looking directly up at the ceiling?
Please don't think I am being pedantic or petty or minimising the problems of those with diabilities, but surely there is only so much anyone can reasonably do in these circumstances?
I would suggest that 'properly' positioned signage should be seen by a wheelchair user when they weren't surrounded by standing people and if they were surrounded by standing people then the sign would then become visible when those people moved away during an emergency evacuation situation.
Hopefully the standing people would also assist the disabled person in an emergency situation i.e let them know there was an emergency, direct them to the exit and aid their safe evacuation.

[Donna]

Yes of course you are right, (and I definately do not think you are being petty, pedantic or minimising...no worries there, Wiz)
I was merely stating a fact, and I cant help that being true....like with most things in life...you cant please everyone all of the time...I am aware of this, and have tried to get around many of the issues I have raised in a clear headed way...the signs should stay exactly where they are as this positioning suits the "average" ....but, it would NOT be unreasonable to also place an "additional" sign on the ceiling, in certain Venues/places  where say, the particular area of a building has a 90% standing or walking traffic...So Im not suggesting all buildings all areas as that would be Unreasonable!

And I understand your point where you said,
"the standing people would also assist the disabled person in an emergency situation, ie let them know there was an emergency, direct them to the exit and aid their safe evacuation"

Yes, in an ideal world one would and should think that! but as I have wrote above ...this Fire Exit to this building needs a clumbersome wheelchair transporter to evacuate however many wheelchaired persons there may be, "DOWN" 2 sets of stairs...then "UP" the final external steps,

How many members of the public would be able to assist the disabled person using this equipment (that they have NO knowledge of using) ...and think really honest here...would most people "want" to chose the same Exit (in a panic stricken situation, where bless them, they may be actually hindering the evacuation, simply because they may not have expertise in disabilities and specialist equipment) that was being BLOCKED by the said evacuation of the wheelchair users, because when "that" piece of equipment, has safely evacuated the first person (hypothetically) and then will have to re-enter the 3 stairs back into the building to do a repeat performance!
Again returning to my main point.....Open up (UNLOCK) the non designated Fire"Exit" so that wheelchair users can get themselves out without needing to "USE" some poor volunteer, (who, lets face it should NEVER be faced with such massive Health and Safety responsibility, and using and relying on members of the public to "AID EVACUATION",In my personal opinion, is Unacceptable!) its just a simple case of "Removing the barriers" and give the disabled person the opportunity to help themselves!

Ok Ok, another way of looking at something,
I was asked a question by one of the Fire Safety officers, that I met up with Last Week,
He asked what my personal opinion was on this Scenario....

Buillding...Possibly Hotel...5th/6th floor up...There is a outside metal evacuation staircase, with a 5/6ft diameter wheelchair refuge area on the landing, (where the able bodied can safely go past and descend the stairs)
Question, How would I feel, sitting there, hearing the alarm bells, seeing everyone else getting out ok?
My Answer, (now I'm being 100% honest) I would attempt to leave my wheelchair (as panic stations will have set in, and basic human instict is survival) and sit, and crawl, wriggle or bump myself down the stairs, (dont really know as I've not done it before...but theres always a first time)
...What will happen to all the hoards of people, "running" down the stairs...I tell you what possibly would/could happen...they would stumble over me...possibly fall, then the next person would fall over them...etc etc...and you might even get someone fall over the side of the staircase!

Sensible resolution of this Scenario...If the Hotellier does not have a fire safe evacuation lift (they obviously had a normal lift for me to get to the floor in the first place) To get me out quickly and safely.....DONT allow me a room on a higher floor!..Safety is of paramount importance over Disabled Rights!

Going back to the Morals of this same "Fire Exit" that Ive been on about...please dont Direct me to a "Fire Exit" where I am going to need the help of others (and put "THEM" in danger or high risk).......... Let me have easy access to the same way as I got INTO the building..ie, the Entrance that had the Stannah Stairlift that CAN be used in the event of Fire and Power Failiure, and its the Exit that ONLY has ONE set of stairs!

[afterburner]

Donna, BS 5499 Part 10 2006 gives guidance and advice on the size and positioning of safety signs and includes specific reference to wheelchair users. Most of us try to implement this postioning guidance. I do however agree with Wiz that standing people may indeed obscure the sign whilst standing but, hopefully, they would be moving when the fire alarm is operating.
A further query, are any of the indicated exit routes you discuss indicated by signs that include the wheelchair symbol on the sign (indicating the route is suitable for non-ambulent wheelchair users?
Lastly, I find the line of questioning from the Fire Officer very disturbing. What was he expecting you to say? The refuge area is supposed to be a waiting area for assistance to arrive. The fire service make it very clear they are not responsible for providing this assistance. It is a duty to be delivered by the management within the bulding, in this case a hypothetical hotel. Are you expected to seek reassurance on arrival that the hotel does indeed have an evacuation plan in place for you and the necessary trained and equipped staff ready to come to your aid? Do you demand proof? Of course not, you are a guest of the hotel and you are entitled to the same fire safety standards as every other guest. If this means a simple protocol like LGF (limited to ground floor) for your accommodation, that is a reasonable adjustment which ensures your safety. and eases the training and equipping burden for the hotel.
I've got to say I still don't fully grasp the routingand locking concepts for this building, but there does appear to be some intranginence involved from the court staff.  But then again they probably think they are perfectly reasonable people.

[Wiz]

Donna, thanks for your reply above to my post.
You will note that I originally only highlighted your comments about the signage because I didn't have any issue with your comments regarding any other aspects of your original post. I understood and agreed with everything else you said and wish you well in your attempts to improve the existing provision.

I am pleased that you agree that it would be very difficult to provide signage positioned so that wheeelchair users surrounded by standing persons could always see them. A sign positioned on the ceiling would really only be possible where the ceilings were very high (then the sign would also have to be very big!) so that it could be seen by a wheelchair user positioned anywhere on the floor below. I think we must accept that properly positioned signs would be seen by the wheelchair user once the standing persons had moved.

I congratulate your sensible attitude to the hotel room scenario. There have been those on this forum that insist that every room in every hotel must be made available to all guests (whatever their disability) just in case they fancied staying in any room they wanted to. Your comment 'Safety is of paramount importance over Disabled Rights!' is exactly the right attitude to have to ensure eventual provision of access everywhere for all disabilities in a reasonable way for all parties. This will happen if everyone faces and deals with the issues in a reasonable manner.

Keep up the good work and good luck with resolving the wheelchair transporter issue!

[Donna]

afterburner, Please dont be disturbed by the Safety Officers line of questioning....I wasn't!...I said to them if you want to ask something, then just ask...I realise that it is the responsibility of the "said" Hotellier, to provide the necessary trained and equipped staff, but lets face it...They are NOT going to be able to "Manhandle" me without injuring me or themselves...and sadly that would be a fact, No-one takes a job, and then has the onus on them to provide lifesaving evacuation, and it would be unfair of the Hotel boss to expect his staff to, So again, I dont think upper rooms should be offered to disabled persons, as in my opinion as a genuinely disabled person...the risk is far to high!
I think the fire safety officer who asked me the question, did not get the answer he was expecting...but I was just being honest!

Wiz, Cheers for your support and comments,

It is extremely difficult job for Fire Safety Officers to get it right...and, (in my opinion only) I think they sometimes should be firm and bite the bullet and say "NO! You should NOT offer upstairs accomodation to any persons who will be 100% needing another person to risk their lives getting them out!"
If they have an fire safe evacuation lift, then all well and good...but if they dont, Outside metal stairs are NOT an option.

I get to talk to quite a few Disabled people, and to be quite honest I am shocked to how selfish some their attitudes can be regarding "using" other people, (Bordering on Health and Safety issues)  so its no wonder that they automatically think they are someone elses responsibility when it comes to an emergency! (not all...just some!)



I am going to continue to get more info on this "Sunwa" wheelchair transporter, and I might even offer to let them try it out on me......but untill I'm covinced...they are not going to get me down no stairs, lol :-)

[Clevelandfire]

Am pleased this was resolved for you Donna- its a good result all round.Its important to take account of the opinions people who are in situations which are uncommon to most of us, I once spent a day in a wheelchair to see what life is like from a less abled persons point of view. After the first ten minutes I was frustrated at how hard it can be to negotiate simple environments.  SO when situations like this arise I can fully understand why you had to get something done about it.