Cost/Frequency of Extinguisher Inspections

[Jif]

I discovered this forum for the first time yesterday and you guys seem to know your stuff so may be able to help me.

The organisation I work at currently has its 165 extinguishers inspected annually, by a local firm, at a cost of over £4000.00.  The extinguishers are rented from this firm and the inspections include refilling/recharging where necessary, guage tests where necessary and replacing o-rings where necessary.

Does this seem a fair cost for such a service or would we be better off buying extinguishers ourselves and just paying for the annual servicing?  Is the annual inspections a legal requirement, a recomendation or is it down to risk assessment?

Also, is there a requirement to replace extingushers (and fire blankets) every ten years?

I have searched past threads and couldn't find the answers but guess these would be a fairly frequent questions so I appologise if it's come up before.

Thank you in advance.

[nearlythere]

I discovered this forum for the first time yesterday and you guys seem to know your stuff so may be able to help me.

The organisation I work at currently has its 165 extinguishers inspected annually, by a local firm, at a cost of over £4000.00.  The extinguishers are rented from this firm and the inspections include refilling/recharging where necessary, guage tests where necessary and replacing o-rings where necessary.

Does this seem a fair cost for such a service or would we be better off buying extinguishers ourselves and just paying for the annual servicing?  Is the annual inspections a legal requirement, a recomendation or is it down to risk assessment?

Also, is there a requirement to replace extingushers (and fire blankets) every ten years?

I have searched past threads and couldn't find the answers but guess these would be a fairly frequent questions so I appologise if it's come up before.

Thank you in advance.

Is this a total care package that your organisation has with the local firm? If an extinguisher is found defective is it's replacement included in the £4K. Additionally, it seems an awful lot of extinguishers to me. Are they all on the same site?

[Jif]

All the extinguishers are on the same site but spread over 17 seperate buildings ranging in size.  In fact, since my original post, I have discovered an additional 20 extingushers I didn't mention!

The site is a school and includes notably - accomadation, two kitchens and a chemistry lab.

My understanding is that we would pay an additional fee for the replacement of an extinguisher although I am going to double check that today.  The firm visits once a year for one day to service the extinguishers.

[The Reiver]

The more you keep finding, the more cost effective it'll be :lol:

Sooooo, what we on then .........£4,000.00 by 185 ?

= £21.62 per unit, per annum. and you have to pay to replace the kit when it's defective.
But you get your call outs for free when needed.

And they can service 185 units in 1 day. Is that 1 engineer ?

I would like to think I am not a hypocrite. Therefore I will not say if I believe you are being fleeced because that is a personal opinion matter and any service business will try to make as much as it can on any contract. Also it takes two to tango, and someone holding the school purse strings will have weighed up the pros and cons and figured they were getting a good deal.

If you are looking for a way out. The first thing you need to do is check how long you are bound to this contract. Rental contracts are usually 10 year deals that firms will fight tooth and nail to keep you tied to.

If you were to buy your own kit you would be probably pay an average of £40.00 to £60.00 per unit and anywhere from £3.00 to £7.50 per unit, per year service fee + call outs / extra attendances @ around £25.00 per visit.
The above is only a guideline and not my pricing, just a rough industry norm (ish). You will have to shop around for the best potential deal.  

I would also look at how many call outs you put out per annum and how many extinguisher refills and types of medium are involved at each call out. You may be getting VFM without realising it.
School + Kids = regularly discharged extinguishers ??

Also be aware that if you do get out of the rental agreement you will have "all" (dependant upon FRA by a competant type) the extinguishers to replace in one fell swoop (before the rental agreement finishes) as the rental units could be removed instantly upon termination of contract (and depending how annoyed the rental company is at losing their deal).
Have you got £10,000+ in your budget to bail out of the agreement ? etc. etc.

[Goodsparks]

Assuming you represent an independent school, It may be worth contacting your local authority and seeing if there is scope to 'buy in' to their corporate contract.
Many will be able to do this, assuming the contact has been properly tendered the annual service could be upto 50% of your existing rental cost including refils / extended services. Equipment prices should be in the £30 - £35 mark top wack (as part of the contract) there are however central government contracts in place that LEA schools would have access to which would supply reasonable equipment at a lower cost than that.

However, as the Reiver says, have you got the dosh to buy all of the new kit required in one go. I suppose there could be an option to buy out the rental agreement and hold onto the kit.


Paul

[AnthonyB]

At around £25 a unit a year you could buy a new extinguisher every two or three years. Proper rental agreements always include a new extinguisher when one is condemned as it isn't your extinguisher - why are you buying the rental companies new extinguisher for them?

Rental is useful for short term event cover or short lease shop units (open a few weeks for fireworks, or xmas cards), but not long term as it makes the fire company a fortune.

Rental maintenance normally falls into two types:
Rental only- extinguisher and servicing included, replacement equipment free (it's rented after all), but refills are extra
Inclusive rental- everything included, including refills (call outs and refills in between annual services are sometimes extra)

Own your own kit & have an 'all inclusive' fixed price service (avoids you getting stung by the higher cost every 5 years for the extended service and covers a refill too), it works out far cheaper if you use a competitively priced firm. If you get on the Chubb National Contract through YPO or the OGC Government Procurement system you can do this at minimal cost - I've used OGC to get very very cheap kit and filling.

If you go through OGC you can replace all the rental units for the same price as your annual rental fee (plus not all extinguisher companies take rental extinguishers back after the contract ends - Chubb rarely do as they will only put in new equipment, it's been paid for in year 1, and it isn't worth the cost to collect and environmentally dispose of the ex rental items)

Yes you need annual basic services, 5 yearly extended services (except CO2 & Nu Swift sealed powders) & 10 year overhauls (CO2 & Nu Swift).

No, the life of an extinguisher is not 10 years. It continues until it's condition deteriorates until it is unfit or unsafe for use and condemned (although it can be as cheap to replace a CO2 at 10 years as overhaul it)

[nim]

Does this seem a fair cost for such a service or would we be better off buying extinguishers ourselves and just paying for the annual servicing?  Is the annual inspections a legal requirement, a recomendation or is it down to risk assessment?

In all honesty you should have got at least 3 quotes if not more even if they are just telephone quotes. You will almost definately save money by buying and having them maintained annually by a competent service technician.

Is the price you are paying all in or do you pay for recharges and replacements?

It is a legal requirement to have your fire extinguishers maintained at least annually.

I would suggest never buy from the internet or catalogues unless you  have a competent person to commission and maintain your fire extinguishers.

A good reliable extinguisher company would if you gave them the figures charge more than an catalogue or internet company but they would /should do a far better job than just dumping boxes on your doorstep for you to try and work out what goes where, am I doing it properly, do I know what I am doing, was the extinguisher damaged in transit never to work again, delivered and placed on it's bracket empty, water extinguisher in the mainframe room scenario.

Always buy Kitemarked extinguishers. Some in my opinion are better than others. Trouble is that you won't know what is what.

If someone not competent or incompetent commissions or maintains your extinguishers any saving you made would be a big time loss if and when a fire extinguisher doesn't work when you need it.

Have you had a Fire Risk Assessment? Does it confirm that you need this many extinguishers?

Also, is there a requirement to replace extingushers (and fire blankets) every ten years?

No but if you are renting does it matter? An extinguisher should last at least 5 years but could easily reach 20 years.

You should get an estimate for 5 years to  give you an idea.

AnthonyB's suggestion that you could get a new extinguisher every two or three years for £25 (these will be internet prices for a box to be dumped on your doorstep) is in my opinion not really an option for the reasons I have mentioned above.

Unless you or someone within your organisation becomes competent to commission extinguishers my advice would be to always, always, always employ a competent service technician.

[AnthonyB]

I wasn't meaning don't service them & buy new every couple of years!

Just saying how low new equipment can be these days - although from several suppliers you risk getting non kitemarked stuff without an initial service. The box dumped on your doorstep rings true and why the new 5306-3 proposes a new category of 'Initial Service'.

But as a school if you buy through the HM Governments' OGC Procurement system you can get kitemarked top quality Chubb kit (real Chubb not Gloria or TG trade ranges) for £20 to £30 and get the servicing and refilling done by Chubb for silly money too on their all inclusive plan.

Otherwise totally agree with nim, just clarifying my comments

[Chris Houston]

I've just got back from doing some surveys in Germany where they only service them every 2 years.  It's got me thinking, if I did a fire safety risk assessment and concluded that servicing every 2 years was good enough for me, do you think anyone would had a problem?  We often work to US standards here, so can't see why Germans ones are not good enough.

[Galeon]

Its only a matter of time , Mot's on motors are changing very soon in line with the rest of Europe , so I suppose the fire industry is going to be no different.

[John Dragon]

I wasn't meaning don't service them & buy new every couple of years!

Just saying how low new equipment can be these days - although from several suppliers you risk getting non kitemarked stuff without an initial service. The box dumped on your doorstep rings true and why the new 5306-3 proposes a new category of 'Initial Service'.

But as a school if you buy through the HM Governments' OGC Procurement system you can get kitemarked top quality Chubb kit (real Chubb not Gloria or TG trade ranges) for £20 to £30 and get the servicing and refilling done by Chubb for silly money too on their all inclusive plan.

Otherwise totally agree with nim, just clarifying my comments

Isn't Chubb kit now made in China?
If they can sell for 20 to 30 quid, why do they charge their small customers £160 +  for a water extinguisher?
I can smell rip off!

[Psuedonym]

Anthony is right regarding the YPO Procurement system. This would provide a school with the best option for cost for new kit and a very low inspection rate. Check out the service details prior to signing any new contract though.
Remember also that in 12 months following the initial install the service engineer, sorry Technician, will be looking for a further sales opportunity to boost his comm. when he pops along to service your ever increasing stock.
Once the current rental agreement has run its course there could be a large outlay required to replace the ex rental kit.

IMPORTANT: Remember, the current rental company will be providing you with additional or replacement kit between now and original agreement end.

That will pose a problem, the new kit will also have a 10 year (Usual term) rental agreement attached to each new extinguisher. This then stops you from ending the contract at the original term end.
You must be vigilant, prior to each annual service. Inform the rental company you need to authorise any replacements prior to installation, don't be fobbed off with "It's part of the contract". Stick to your ground you are the customer. This then gives you the opportunity to shop around local firms to supply replacement exts. and not purchase/ rent from your rental firm.

Steer clear of the internet for fire equipment. You may get a great purchase price but sod all support. Do you know what type of ext. is required for a particular hazard and the wall mounting requirements for example? How the Co2 swivel horn is fitted? Get it wrong and people will be hurt.
Some "regular" fire firms have internet trade sites under "warehouse" titles - use them as a reference tool only.

With regard to an Annual Service Agreement ensure all call outs are quoted, i.e. labour/time, call out fee, recharge fee as well as the regular cost per unit for inspection,recharge and extended service per type of extinguisher. The only other price you need is the replacement per type/ size of extinguisher.

Good luck

[AnthonyB]

Chubb and it's trade subsidiary Thomas Glover produce their extinguishers in China having shut the Ferndale plant in Wales (which dates back over 80 years to the days of Pyrene) a few years ago. If you want an extinguisher from the Mighty UTC that isn't Chinese you need to buy Gloria - which is being used in place of the former UK made Chubb kit in their Scandinavian companies. Gloria kit is replacing the Spanish made extinguishers they sell through their spanish wing Parsi SA. They are introducing UK colour coding to Spain as well with the new Parsi range.

The big difference between their stuff and everyone else's is that they own the whole factory lock stock and barrel and can thus ensure the quality is the same whilst profiting (even more) from the labour savings. Most other companies who use Chinese kit buy it as one of many customers of an existing separate Chinese country.

[nim]

service engineer, sorry Technician,

Taking the pee? If it's good enough for British Standards it's good enough for me.

will be looking for a further sales opportunity to boost his comm. when he pops along to service your ever increasing stock.

You could look at it another way.  A "service engineer, sorry Technician" can advise the customer that a particular risk is not covered and should be covered. Nothing wrong with giving good advice.

PS. "service engineer, sorry Technician" only joshing.

[John Dragon]

Anthony is right regarding the YPO Procurement system. This would provide a school with the best option for cost for new kit and a very low inspection rate. Check out the service details prior to signing any new contract though.
Remember also that in 12 months following the initial install the service engineer, sorry Technician, will be looking for a further sales opportunity to boost his comm. when he pops along to service your ever increasing stock.
Once the current rental agreement has run its course there could be a large outlay required to replace the ex rental kit.

IMPORTANT: Remember, the current rental company will be providing you with additional or replacement kit between now and original agreement end.

That will pose a problem, the new kit will also have a 10 year (Usual term) rental agreement attached to each new extinguisher. This then stops you from ending the contract at the original term end.
You must be vigilant, prior to each annual service. Inform the rental company you need to authorise any replacements prior to installation, don't be fobbed off with "It's part of the contract". Stick to your ground you are the customer. This then gives you the opportunity to shop around local firms to supply replacement exts. and not purchase/ rent from your rental firm.

Steer clear of the internet for fire equipment. You may get a great purchase price but sod all support. Do you know what type of ext. is required for a particular hazard and the wall mounting requirements for example? How the Co2 swivel horn is fitted? Get it wrong and people will be hurt.
Some "regular" fire firms have internet trade sites under "warehouse" titles - use them as a reference tool only.

With regard to an Annual Service Agreement ensure all call outs are quoted, i.e. labour/time, call out fee, recharge fee as well as the regular cost per unit for inspection,recharge and extended service per type of extinguisher. The only other price you need is the replacement per type/ size of extinguisher.

Good luck

Don't forget price of spare parts used, some companies make a lot of money from tamper indicators, "o" rings, swivel horns, extinguisher signs, wall mounting, etc etc.