fie safety

[clvspencer82]

Fire Exit/Key Pad issue

 

I work in a medium sized shop in which there are several fire exits provided. To the rear of the shop there is a fire exit which is located up a small flight of stairs. This is the only fire exit in this area. Also accessed from these stairs is a store warehouse the door to which has a numeric key pad on it. Recently, to prevent the general public accessing the warehouse, a numeric keypad has been added to the door at the bottom of the stairs.

 

As far as I understand all doors on a fire exit route should be easily opened by anyone (i.e. the general public) however I believe that this key pad does not allow anyone to access the fire exit. As far as I am aware all members of staff know the code to open the key pad but they are no always in this area. Additionally I am not aware of any clause in the risk assessment for a member of staff to immediately move to that fire exit.

 

A talk with our Health and safety officer seems to have fallen on deaf ears as his response was “the manger said it was OK”. Additionally I have spoken to the manager and got a similar response which I don’t think adequately suppresses my fears that it is a major risk.

 

Can anyone point me in the right direction as to which legislations I should be looking at and who I should be contacting to have this checked/investigated?

[nearlythere]

Fire Exit/Key Pad issue

 

I work in a medium sized shop in which there are several fire exits provided. To the rear of the shop there is a fire exit which is located up a small flight of stairs. This is the only fire exit in this area. Also accessed from these stairs is a store warehouse the door to which has a numeric key pad on it. Recently, to prevent the general public accessing the warehouse, a numeric keypad has been added to the door at the bottom of the stairs.

 

As far as I understand all doors on a fire exit route should be easily opened by anyone (i.e. the general public) however I believe that this key pad does not allow anyone to access the fire exit. As far as I am aware all members of staff know the code to open the key pad but they are no always in this area. Additionally I am not aware of any clause in the risk assessment for a member of staff to immediately move to that fire exit.

 

A talk with our Health and safety officer seems to have fallen on deaf ears as his response was “the manger said it was OK”. Additionally I have spoken to the manager and got a similar response which I don’t think adequately suppresses my fears that it is a major risk.

 

Can anyone point me in the right direction as to which legislations I should be looking at and who I should be contacting to have this checked/investigated?

First thing you have to do clvspencer82 is to determine if it is needed for escape purposes even if it is indicated as such especially when you say that there are several fire exits provided. It is possible that it may not be needed for escape purposes. Depends very much on the other exits and travel distances. Have you a plan of the premises?

[clvspencer82]

there are four fire exits in totallt one at front of shop one in middle, one in goods inn which when a fire is detected then a shutter commes down so that you can not go through and the final one at the back of shop. the one at the back is the one that has a locked door in front. as for the general public especially the older people will have to work all the way to the front if there isnt a staff member present.

[clvspencer82]

the next nearest exit is located about roughly 11metre away and the one after that is roughly about20 metres from that only rough measurements.

[nearlythere]

the next nearest exit is located about roughly 11metre away and the one after that is roughly about20 metres from that only rough measurements.

Disregarding the locked exit door in question and the Goods-In door, to start with is the TRAVEL distance from any point in the shop to the nearest of the remaining two within 18M?

Is there an alternative escape route from the goods in area should the roller shutter close?

[Chris Houston]

The relevant legislation is the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005, but in very short summary it will tell you you need to have a fire safety risk assessment and suitable escape.  What is suitable is complex.  To understand this you might refer to government guidance.

[AnthonyB]

Bit of a rubbish H&S officer basing his assessment on what a manager says - what on earth is he being paid for? (although with a lot of retail H&S people I wonder why they exit seeing what they churn out, especially regarding fire when they often don't have a clue!)

As said, just because someone stuck a fire exit sign on the door doesn't mean it has to be a fire exit. In a lot of smaller retail units I've seen fire exit signs stuck on rear doors just because they were external doors despite no risk assessment nor fire certificate (in days of old) nor travel distance etc. requiring it.

Often where code locks are fitted they are electronic and linked into the fire alarm (& sometimes not!) and have a green break glass override (often with a cover). Sometimes they are the mechanical type & this is a problem if the route is essential.

http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/fire/pdf/151543.pdf links to guidance that will help you decide if the route is required

[clvspencer82]

from the back of the shop the nearest exit ignoring goods in and locked door is roughly about 11/12 metres. but wat concerns me is if the fire is around this exit then the nearest exit is about 20/25 metres.  the nearest exit from goods in is as i say 11/12 metres but then as agin if the fire is around that exit it is further.
after speaking again to the heath and safety officer he says that it is fine and head office agree. he said that there is a plan but shouldnt that be told to staff members. head office also said that because there are stairs behind this door that it is not a good exit. also that it is a spare exit. but as i already said shouldnt there be a exit available at hte back of the shop  i gave him a situation that involved a elderly person being at the back of the shop and they have to walk that distance my take longer and they said that they would make it and that i shouldnt take responseability to get them out. i gave him info that i recieved through the hse and he said he will read it and confirm with head office.  there is signs above the door indicating that there is a fire door behind it. should these signs be taken down.

[jokar]

As indicated above your question is not easily answered without reference to plans and dimensions or a look at the premises.  Just because exits are signed fire exits, it does not mean that they are required or needed in that location.  It is a tough call without the knowledge you have of the premises and the knowledge of the respondence of this site but generally, if the exit is a fire exit then it needs to be accessible at all times when the premises are occupied.

[Midland Retty]

Hi Clvspencer

Hopefully this will help (bearing in mind that this is only guidance as really we would need to see the premises or a plan to give you a definitive answer:-

In shops with more than one fire exit guidance says that you should be able to reach any one of those fire exits within 45 metres

If you only had one fire exit (ie just one door which acts as the entrance and way out in the shop) then you would have to reach it within 18 metres

So basically you can have a larger travel distance if you have more than one fire exit.

As long as you can reach atleast one exit within 45 metres then it doesnt matter how far you have to travel to an alternative fire exit should the first one be blocked.

Your Health and Safety Officer may well be correct in saying the door to the stairs isnt required for means of escape purposes (cant say for sure without seeing the premises) but if it isnt then it must not be signed up as a fire exit.  

Furthermore I think its a bit poor that the Health and Safety Officer didnt explain his or her reasoning to you, but atleast you had presence of mind to question it.

There are guidance documents available to download free which shows you some of the things we have have been talking about regarding your question (then again you may have better things to do that sit and read through boring guidance) Eitherway the link is

http://www.communities.gov.uk/fire/firesafety/firesafetylaw/aboutguides/

follow the link to that page then select the "Office and Shops guide" from the right hand menu.

[nearlythere]

from the back of the shop the nearest exit ignoring goods in and locked door is roughly about 11/12 metres. but wat concerns me is if the fire is around this exit then the nearest exit is about 20/25 metres.  the nearest exit from goods in is as i say 11/12 metres but then as agin if the fire is around that exit it is further.
after speaking again to the heath and safety officer he says that it is fine and head office agree. he said that there is a plan but shouldnt that be told to staff members. head office also said that because there are stairs behind this door that it is not a good exit. also that it is a spare exit. but as i already said shouldnt there be a exit available at hte back of the shop  i gave him a situation that involved a elderly person being at the back of the shop and they have to walk that distance my take longer and they said that they would make it and that i shouldnt take responseability to get them out. i gave him info that i recieved through the hse and he said he will read it and confirm with head office.  there is signs above the door indicating that there is a fire door behind it. should these signs be taken down.

Clvspencer82. You have to bear in mind that there only has to be a reasonable means of escape. Everybody, wherever they are in a shop, does not have to have an exit at their immediate location otherwise there would be no room for walls. They should be expected to have to make their way to one and if the exit or exits are within a reasonable distance of travel then that is acceptable. Bearing in mind that I have not seen a plan of the layout it would appear that from what you say the travel distances to an exit within the public area or exits seem OK.
However, if a door is not needed as an escape door and cannot maintained as one then it should not be indicated as a means of escape.

Is there an alternative and acceptable means of escape from the Goods In area if the roller shutter closes?

[CivvyFSO]

For clvspencers benefit: To add to all the comments here:

The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 states:

"Article 14 (2) (f) emergency doors must not be so locked or fastened that they cannot be easily and immediately opened by any person who may require to use them in an emergency;"

IF the door is required then having that lock on could potentially put someone at risk of death or serious injury in the event of fire, which is enough to create an offence for which the owner/Responsible Person could be prosecuted for.

But DO take into account all that has been said here before you go telling your boss he is going to prison/getting fined.

[jokar]

Civvy,  you forgot the "Where Necessary" bit.  You do not have to do it only if it is required/needed and then wanted providing thatb there is adequate egress.

[clvspencer82]

just to let you know the lock has been removed. and now you can get to the exit without any problems. not sure why all i can gather is that our health and safety officer was ringing head office himself and they have told him to remove it