CFOA guidance on extinguishers for auditors

[Clevelandfire]

You give examples of domestic scenarios. Sheltered homes are different, non domestic dwellings are different. I see where you are coming from and dont disagree with anything you say but I would ask you to answers Retty's question about whether you want Mrs Bloggs to fight the fire or evacuate. What is more important life or posessions? You're saying that people will try to put out fire regardless of whether fire extinguishers are at hand or not. And you are right. But if that sheltered housing scheme provides them it has a legal duty to provide training on how to use them and is basically endorsing that the elderly should try and fight fire. Firee Brigades are tryiong to do a lot to educate people about the dangers of tackling fire through home fire safety checks and other campaigns and strategies but human behaviour states people will always have a go at fighting it to protect whats theirs. Cant comment on domestic scenarios because an english mans home is his castle but sheltered schemes shouldnt provide extinguishers.

[Ricardo]

There is a similar story in the latest FIA Focus newsletter Issue 7, where a decision by a  risk assessment company was made to remove the fire extinguishers from 2 blocks of flats.

could you point me in the right direction to find this newsletter please

terry

try looking at www.fia.uk.com  although it may not be on their site as yet, if you want let me have your address privately and I can send you the article

[Chris Houston]

I was under the impression that this thread was about domestic situations.  The thread started with a discussion about "landlords" it didn't mention sheltered housing.  Nor did the BBC article.  

I don't know Mrs Bloggs or much about the medical condition that she suffers from.  I would suggest that she probably isn't going to be using the extinguisher, but perhaps the plumber who caused the fire would, perhaps the visiting relative would, perhaps her carer would, I don't know much about sheltered housing, but I can't see why giving people the ability to fight the fire properly if they are going to do so anyway is a bad thing.  I think not providing it on the basis of peoples age is wrong.

[val]

The particular sheltered housing scheme that was the catalyst for the CFOA circular (the Dorset flats was a late add-on), had a fully fitted kitchen in the lounge area complete with cooker.

I agree with Chris here, in a couple of years I can step off my fire engine and buy a flat (sorry appartment) in a sheltered housing scheme. Should I be denied the chance of putting out a small fire?

The training is a red herring...thousands of people without training pull out the pin of their private extinguishers and squirt away with varying degrees of success. The FSO only requires the training of employees.

I think it is a person's human right to get stuck in...within reason. Death to the H & S police! Residents and others should be told that there is no expectation that they should use the extinguishers and if the fire is THIS big they shouldn't even try. If, on the other hand they are confident and don't suffer from any deadly wasting disease...have a go. Remember enforced moving of elderly people (following a fire) is a big killer.

[messy]

Network Rail supply defibs on walls at my local main line terminal. They are a mediacl first aid measure to be used by trained staff. It says so on a sign nearby, presumably to prevent litigation if some 'stupid' member of the public tried to use it (in the absence of any NR staff) when attempting to save a loved one's life.

My point? Consider a water extinguisher is fitted to a wall in a common part of a residental block. It's a first aid measure similar to that of the Defib machine.

Could a similar sign next to an extingusher- indicating: "Only to be used by trained persons"- go some way to mitigating the fear of litigation without the need to remove this potentially vital bit of kit?

This places the responsibilty back to the person who wishes to use it and in any case, the RP only has responsibilty for training his employees - not residents

[Clevelandfire]

I was under the impression that this thread was about domestic situations.  The thread started with a discussion about "landlords" it didn't mention sheltered housing.  Nor did the BBC article.  

I don't know Mrs Bloggs or much about the medical condition that she suffers from.  I would suggest that she probably isn't going to be using the extinguisher, but perhaps the plumber who caused the fire would, perhaps the visiting relative would, perhaps her carer would, I don't know much about sheltered housing, but I can't see why giving people the ability to fight the fire properly if they are going to do so anyway is a bad thing.  I think not providing it on the basis of peoples age is wrong.

You have failed to read my post correctly. Please read it again Chris and comment on the questions Ive asked.
Val talks about the right to fight fire - fine then the residents will have to supply their own fire extinguishers, but the landlord shouldnt have to provide them in respect of HMOs, blocks of flats or sheltered housing schemes.
What you fail to realise is that yes a plumber or visitor at Mrs Bloggs flat could attempt to put oyt a fire - but are they trained to do so? if they go and use a fire extinguisher supplied by a landlord in a common area then the mess will definately hit the fan if things go wrong.
If you own your own house then fine buy an extinguisher and use it at your own risk I have no problem with that as ive said all along. Messy sums it all up for me in what he says. We're not trying to be the Health and Safety Police.  If you want to purchase your own fire extinguisher then go ahead. But dont start sueing landlords when youve used one of their extinguishers and its all gone wrong. Ill say for the last time as I tried to point out before where a landlord or other RP provides extinguishers he or she or they have to provide training on how to use them. Now will you please read properly what Ive said and make comment based on that. I will ask again Chris will you please answer Midland Retty's question would you want a frail woman to fight fire or instaed prefer she evacuates and is safe. please just give a simple yes or no answer the description of the ficticious person should give you enough information to base your answer. The last thing Id askl is directed at Val. Why do operational firefighters  have to retire at the age of 55 from front line service (or serve in another role)?

[Chris Houston]

I didn't fail to read your post correctly.  It's just that you don't like my answers.

Your post at 18:11 contains one question.  (What is more important, life or property?) My answer is "Life" but the two are not mutualy exclusive.  It is possible to extingish a little fire without putting your life in danger.  It happens all the time, all over the country.

I don't agree that if the plumber uses an extingiusher wrongly it is a the worst case scenario.  My view is that if he was without one, it could be worse.  There is no difference between him using one in the care home and using one in the supermarket.

Your comment, apparently directed at me "don't start sueing landlords" confuse me a bit.  I wasn't planning to sue anyone, but thanks for the tip.  My landlord hasn't supplied an extinguisher, but I have my own anyway.  Let's get away from the discussion about me, I think it confuses the topic.

With regards to our hypothetical Mrs Bloggs, I think I already said I don't know enough about her circumstances to know what she should do, but I wouldn't deny her the right to a fire extingisher based on any assumptions about her condition or age.  People don't have to use them, I'm just saying my perference would be for her to have the option.  Sorry my answer isn't the "yes or no" you want, life isn't that simple.

(I think you need to chill out a bit!) :cool:

[CivvyFSO]

If 61 year old resident Mike Edwards' flat was on fire I am sure his time would be better spent walking down the staircase while on the phone to the fire service, rather than walking back into his burning flat. This would be the same regardless of anyones age.

So I'm sitting in my living room.  If my toaster/bin/hifi ignites I'll be putting it out with the dry powder in the kitchen, rather than let is grow to engulf my house and risk my neighbours lives.  But you think I should just let it grow and spread?

Where would such logic end?  Do you think we should just do away with all fire extinguishers, let all fires grow rather than put 90% of them out without fire service intervention as happens currently?

The whole fact you have supplied your own dry powder in the kitchen (And possibly familiarised yourself with its instructions) is a different story entirely. If you want to take that risk that is your option, and personally I (And I am sure most of the people here) would do the same. However, a landlord supplying extinguishers in the common parts of flats is a different matter, as is the difference between equipment supplied in a workplace/office/factory/warehouse and all of the above.

Imagine you have elderly parents and they live in some nice retirement flats. Would you suggest to them that if they have a fire theres an extinguisher in the hall they can put it out with? No training of any sort? Knowing your parents are a bit old fashioned and like to use the old chip pan... Knowing the extinguisher supplied is a 9l water?

Do you have a source for that 90% figure?

[lambie]

Fire extinguishers in certain situations can be a real pain, and unfortunately life is never that simple. A block of flats used to house people who have had disruption in their lives, young fit people not older or less able people. Turned fire extinguishers into weapons to settle scores and when extinguishers were replaced did it again. As always nothing is so simple as to find common ground for a solution that suits everyone and I can see an argument for the position of many of the posters here maybe the risk assessment is the answer.

[wee brian]

http://www.apea.org.uk/index.cfm?objectid=F9050693-11D8-A53C-B864996E88E4FAB2&downloadfile=yes

[Chris Houston]

Do you have a source for that 90% figure?

Essex FRS told it to me over the phone, sadly I didn't write down the name of the person who told me.

But I would have estimated it to be higher.  Nobody is seriously suggesting that the FRS are called to every little kitchen/bin/garden/candle/cigarette fire.

[Chris Houston]

I quote from the document above:

"Of the 2,173 incidents recorded in the survey, in 80% of cases (1,737) the portable
equipment successfully extinguished the fire and in 75% (1,637) of those cases, the
fire brigade was not required to attend."

Naturally the figures will be higher, as many small incidents will be unreported upon.

[terry martin]

thanks for the pointers, i have found the document i was looking for it was a CFOA circular unfortunatly i can't provide a link to it, but it has a Reference number: 2008/1007 circular.

it is the one making reference to sheltered housing, thanks guy's

[terry martin]

http://www.apea.org.uk/index.cfm?objectid=F9050693-11D8-A53C-B864996E88E4FAB2&downloadfile=yes

thanks wee brian, that makes interesting reading

[Midland Retty]

If 61 year old resident Mike Edwards' flat was on fire I am sure his time would be better spent walking down the staircase while on the phone to the fire service, rather than walking back into his burning flat. This would be the same regardless of anyones age.

So I'm sitting in my living room.  If my toaster/bin/hifi ignites I'll be putting it out with the dry powder in the kitchen, rather than let is grow to engulf my house and risk my neighbours lives.  But you think I should just let it grow and spread?

Where would such logic end?  Do you think we should just do away with all fire extinguishers, let all fires grow rather than put 90% of them out without fire service intervention as happens currently?

The whole fact you have supplied your own dry powder in the kitchen (And possibly familiarised yourself with its instructions) is a different story entirely. If you want to take that risk that is your option, and personally I (And I am sure most of the people here) would do the same. However, a landlord supplying extinguishers in the common parts of flats is a different matter, as is the difference between equipment supplied in a workplace/office/factory/warehouse and all of the above.

Imagine you have elderly parents and they live in some nice retirement flats. Would you suggest to them that if they have a fire theres an extinguisher in the hall they can put it out with? No training of any sort? Knowing your parents are a bit old fashioned and like to use the old chip pan... Knowing the extinguisher supplied is a 9l water?

Do you have a source for that 90% figure?

I have to say Chris you havent answered CivvyFSO's question - you criticised Clevelandfire of not liking your answers, but it would seem you dont like some of the questions being posed.

My final word on this is that if you want to provide a fire extinguisher for your own home then that is your business, your right and at your own risk.

As far as Im concerned however landlords do not (and should not) have to provide fire extinguishers in common areas for residents, if they do they must provide training on how to use them which realistically will never happen.

Are you advocating that potentially elderley resident base who might be frail or suffering from mobility impairment should be encouraged to tackle fire and be supplied with fire extinguishers courtesy of a landlord?

I think reading Clevelandfire's post again (it did sound a little angry) is that it would be the landlord who was blamed if anything did go horribly wrong and a resident tried to fight a fire using a fire extinguisher that they had provided.

By providing extinguishers are you not advocating they should be used? Could there be the potential for a resident to look for a fire extinguisher from the common areas if their flat was on fire only to then totter back and find their lounge has reached flashover conditions?