Oxygen depletion panel specification ???

[Benzerari]

Hi Guys;

Any one knows of any standard related to the oxygen depletion system's specifications, I have recently commissioned one, 'VortexPC' make of 'Crowcon' Company, but I had not been given any specifications regarding the causes and effects.

The panel has 8 internal relays to monitor output signals: sounders, beacons, door releases, fans, link to main fire alarm system ... etc each separately, the outputs have to be programmed to be triggered either in alarm 1, 2 or 3.

I have put every thing in alarm 2... .

Also regarding the link to the main fire alarm system of the building, to what alarm level should be programmed?

Any standard related to oxygen depletion system ?

Thank you

[kurnal]

Was this depletion system covering a confined space ?  More info would help- but in my opinion there does not need to be an automatic link between oxygen depletion systems and fire alarm and has not been in several cases that I have encountered.

[Benzerari]

Was this depletion system covering a confined space ?  More info would help- but in my opinion there does not need to be an automatic link between oxygen depletion systems and fire alarm and has not been in several cases that I have encountered.

Kurnal;

It was my first time to see it and tried to learn it to; I received all relevant product documents, software, and the lead for programming and so on. But no specification of what should be done. The specialist engineer supposed to be in charge would be free in three weeks time to come to commission it, and it was inspection for hand over of the whole site that day.

It is fitted in the basement newly refurbished as offices and labs, the basement hasn’t got windows open to the air, as far as I understood, there will be a lack of oxygen if the basement is fully occupied, so monitoring the oxygen level was the main point I think, below 15 or say 16% of oxygen in the environment, it should trigger the fans one to extract air and one to bring air into the basement, also to release the doors... but below that level, I think it should trigger alarms and beacons.

We are in charge of the fire alarm system of the building, we upgraded into the basement as new alterations appears, and it comes to us to commissioning the oxygen depletion system too, but I have no idea if either it does need to be linked to the fire alarm system or not also in what alarm level.

[David Rooney]

Benz.... no offence but how on earth can you commission such a system if you haven't got any design spec or figures to work to ??

Personally I'd want someone elses name on a design certificate and an agreed methodology on linking it to any other systems before I touched it...(don't see why it needs to be linked to fire system by the way)

[kurnal]

There is a duty under the Workplace (H S W) Regs on an employer to provide adequate ventilation in any workplace and it is most unlikely that in the circumstances you describe an oxygen depletion warning would be considered suitable and sufficient as the levels drop below optimum before action is taken.

Ventilation is so easy to achieve in these circumstances- I wonder if as it is a laboratory there is a risk of gases or vapours, heavier than air, to accumulate and possible asphyxiation as a result. If this is correct the basement should be prescribed as a "confined space" and the oxygen depletion would be part of the risk control measures. Theres a lot of work been done on oxygen levels and the jury is out on possible harmful effects- we all experience this in an aircraft cabin or at high altitude. Wagner uk have some info on their website in support of their oxyreduct product.

Anyway my point is this. It could be very confusing to have both an oxygen depletion alarm and a fire alarm sounding together and in the event of a problem in the basement would cause confusion as to the nature of the emergency. And a risk of not hearing one or the other, and what action to take- are we dealing with a fire or an oxygen depletion emergency? Is there an explosion risk as a result of the oxygen depletion alarm? If so people need to be warned and a full evacuation should then take place- but this is not an appropriate use of the fire alarm, Furthermore if on operation of the oxygen depletion sensors fire doors are thrown open then that may undermine the safety of persons elsewhere in the building. It sounds like a proper dogs breakfast.

One of my clients with a confined space of this nature sets his alarm at 19%, another at 17%. I believe persons can work in an environment as low as 15% oxygen  for short periods under a permit to work system, supervision and an occupational heath surveillance scheme

[Benzerari]

Benz.... no offence but how on earth can you commission such a system if you haven't got any design spec or figures to work to ??

Personally I'd want someone elses name on a design certificate and an agreed methodology on linking it to any other systems before I touched it...(don't see why it needs to be linked to fire system by the way)

I agree, in theory I had been told one day in FIA ( Ex-BFPSA ) commissioning course, that if you have not been issued installation certificate, design certificate and the rest of the specifications just DO NOT TOUCH IT.

But in the real world, I have done so many commissioning without that documents, call it rescuing the situation...

I found the oxygen depletion system not really hard to learn, it looks a bit basic such a conventional system, the panel was fitted on the wall and the cabling hanging by the panel, therefore just by chasing all cabling I found two going to front and back door release system, to others were going to fans, one going to the sounders and one going to the beacons separately respectively, and so on, just connected them to the panel.

The system have channels instead of zones with one oxygen detector per channel which is the end of the line at the same time, in total there were 4 used channels so 4 detectors. Also 8 output channels to monitor the output signals as mentioned in my previous thread

To be honest any qualified fire alarm engineer can commissioning it ,just by following the product guides provided. But the causes and effects are the main point; I have programmed every output mentioned previously to be triggered in alarm 2 which is the level of 16% of oxygen. This is the medium choice.

Also it was 2 cables coming from BMS to be linked to that oxygen panel which I did not link them because I could not access to the other end of the cable (BMS side), in addition to the link to fire alarm system was there, both ends hanging by the panels, I did not link it, because I was not sure whether it is necessary to do so.

My main enquiry is that is this oxygen depletion system mentioned in BS5839, if not, is there any other standard for this sort of systems?

[Benzerari]

There is a duty under the Workplace (H S W) Regs on an employer to provide adequate ventilation in any workplace and it is most unlikely that in the circumstances you describe an oxygen depletion warning would be considered suitable and sufficient as the levels drop below optimum before action is taken.

Ventilation is so easy to achieve in these circumstances- I wonder if as it is a laboratory there is a risk of gases or vapours, heavier than air, to accumulate and possible asphyxiation as a result. If this is correct the basement should be prescribed as a "confined space" and the oxygen depletion would be part of the risk control measures. Theres a lot of work been done on oxygen levels and the jury is out on possible harmful effects- we all experience this in an aircraft cabin or at high altitude. Wagner uk have some info on their website in support of their oxyreduct product.

This could be one of the causes

Anyway my point is this. It could be very confusing to have both an oxygen depletion alarm and a fire alarm sounding together and in the event of a problem in the basement would cause confusion as to the nature of the emergency. And a risk of not hearing one or the other, and what action to take- are we dealing with a fire or an oxygen depletion emergency? Is there an explosion risk as a result of the oxygen depletion alarm? If so people need to be warned and a full evacuation should then take place- but this is not an appropriate use of the fire alarm, Furthermore if on operation of the oxygen depletion sensors fire doors are thrown open then that may undermine the safety of persons elsewhere in the building. It sounds like a proper dogs breakfast.

Yes both fire alarm and oxygen systems have each its own sounders but they sound in different patterns, regarding the door releases, there are in fact so many doors in the basement to evacuate outside, many of them are linked to the fire alarm system not to oxygen depletion system.

One of my clients with a confined space of this nature sets his alarm at 19%, another at 17%. I believe persons can work in an environment as low as 15% oxygen  for short periods under a permit to work system, supervision and an occupational heath surveillance scheme

[David Rooney]

To be honest any qualified fire alarm engineer can commissioning it ,just by following the product guides provided. But the causes and effects are the main point; I have programmed every output mentioned previously to be triggered in alarm 2 which is the level of 16% of oxygen. This is the medium choice.

Hello Benz.......

I'm sure any one with half a clue could turn the thing on and make it work, but that wasn't my point.

My point was that if you are not fully aware of why this system has been specified and what's its purpose... and not knowing excactly what this building is or why it was specified then I'm only guessing too..... then how can you fully commission it ??

To take it to an extreme if this area is so deep within the building there is a risk of people actually dying due to lack of oxygen then there must be some pretty hefty health and safety systems in place and all sorts of alarms and back up supplies i would have thought for the fans etc in case they fail.

I don't see at the moment as you have enough information to sign your name to it.... and no its not covered in BS 5839 .... and does your insurance company cover you for commissioning such systems.....??!!

[Benzerari]

Hello Benz.......

I'm sure any one with half a clue could turn the thing on and make it work, but that wasn't my point.

My point was that if you are not fully aware of why this system has been specified and what's its purpose... and not knowing excactly what this building is or why it was specified then I'm only guessing too..... then how can you fully commission it ??

That is one of the missing points, I did not consider it as fully commissionned, I tested it in alarm 2 and worked OK near the inspectors and clients and so on, the inspectors them selves haven't got clue about what should be done as long as they heard alarm went off they were satistied... they were instead looking to the finish of the paint and decorations...

To take it to an extreme if this area is so deep within the building there is a risk of people actually dying due to lack of oxygen then there must be some pretty hefty health and safety systems in place and all sorts of alarms and back up supplies i would have thought for the fans etc in case they fail.

I don't see at the moment as you have enough information to sign your name to it.... and no its not covered in BS 5839 .... and does your insurance company cover you for commissioning such systems.....??!!

I do agree we will end up one day in the prison by trying to rescue the situations and covering the back of others, but the job is job things come to you what would you do?

About the BS5839, that is what I wanted to hear, so it is not covering the oxygen depletion systems then. also regarding the inssurance company I will think about it, I am more concern about the court instead! just in case things come back to me.

any way the specialist has turned up later on and completed the commissionining according to the client spec.

Thank you