Author Topic: ceiling fans adjacent to smoke detectors  (Read 7818 times)

Offline Paul2886

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ceiling fans adjacent to smoke detectors
« on: July 11, 2008, 02:50:23 PM »
What do you think?
Scenario:
Residential care home for severley physically handicapped adults. Certainly be a delayed evacuation in the event of fire owing to all requiring hoists and wheelcahirs.
Amongst other items I have asked for an increase in detection to try and apply some compensation to the aforesaid.
Now what have they done: fitted ceiling fans immediately below the smoke detectors in each residents room. I explained that this would severly delay the activation of the fire alarm system owing to the downward draft. Early detection is absolutely vital in the premises owing to a single direction of travel and single staircase condition. Have any of you FRA's ever come across this problem and please, what did you do? Ta

Offline Galeon

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ceiling fans adjacent to smoke detectors
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2008, 05:43:51 PM »
move the detector , only choice  as long as its 500 mm away from the door it should be o.k
Its time to make a counter attack !

Clevelandfire

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ceiling fans adjacent to smoke detectors
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2008, 11:43:09 PM »
There is the potential that the fans will prevent the detector activating as quickly as they would normally. Try to relocate the detector or relocate the fan.

Offline kurnal

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ceiling fans adjacent to smoke detectors
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2008, 02:27:26 PM »
Yes Cleveland is right- if the fan is running at the time of a fire who can predict the effect of the fan on the fire plume and its effect in terms of time to detect the fire. I guess a Carbon Monoxide based detector or a multi sensor head may be a better solution?

Offline Paul2886

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« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2008, 10:34:06 PM »
Quote from: kurnal
Yes Cleveland is right- if the fan is running at the time of a fire who can predict the effect of the fan on the fire plume and its effect in terms of time to detect the fire. I guess a Carbon Monoxide based detector or a multi sensor head may be a better solution?
Hi Kurnal,
Have big reservations about your solution mentioned above. Firstly a carbon monoxide sensor will not be triggered until the fire has started to exhaust the oxygen in the room (incomplete combustion). And a multi head sensor will still allow a smoke build up before any activation. Remember my point about the types of residents and delayed evacuation. I've simply highlighted the need to either consider floor standing or wall fans, removing the ceiling fans or repositioning the heads. There are not happy bunnies as they've just been installed. I get called a combination of, Mr gloom and doom and the miserable git. Do you guys?

Offline kurnal

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ceiling fans adjacent to smoke detectors
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2008, 08:09:50 AM »
Yes Paul thts why I led into my suggestions  with "I guess".
As CO diffuses throughout a space and is not confined within the fire plume, unlike smoke,  I thought this may help to provide a solution.

CO detectors give a useful response to most fires- all fires generate CO to some extent. A multi sensor head on an analogue system can be set up with a range of states or sensitivity. and can incorporate twin chamber smoke, heat, rate of rise and CO detectors all working  in concert. But you need to have a compatible system. Take a look at the Gent SQuad heads for example.

Computer rooms  inevitably present a similar problem if simple indirect  coolers are used, again siting of detectors and increasing the number of detectors are the usual considerations.

Unless someone does some modelling it is unlikely that any of us can come up with a definitive solution. The effect of the fan will depend on many factors- dimensions of the room, location of a fire, type of fire, distance between detector and fan. It may even turn out not be too much of a problem.

Personally my gut  feeling is that if you are not concerned about interfacing the fans to the fire alarm system to shut them down in a fire to reduce fire growth then perhaps they also aint going to be too much of an issue at the detection stage. But then again my gut feelings often get me into hot water, especially where clotted cream and chocolate are concerned.

Offline wozzer38

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ceiling fans adjacent to smoke detectors
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2008, 08:51:06 AM »
Wrong Kurnal...CO is not produced by overheating combustion...such as from overheating cable and pyrolisis.

It is also not produced in large enough quantities at the early stages of a flaming fire.

CO should only be used in small room <50m squared where it will have a similar response to smoke heads and where there is a risk of a deep seated fire....so perhaps outside a laundry cupboard.

It can be used as supplementry detection in most systems....and this will help in some areas where thermal barriers exist.

My advice would be to go for Multisensors and maybe use CO as a supplement, such is the risk. Perhaps a smoke test can be performed with fans running to see what the reaction time is?

Offline kurnal

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ceiling fans adjacent to smoke detectors
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2008, 08:03:57 PM »
Quote from: wozzer38
Wrong Kurnal...CO is not produced by overheating combustion...such as from overheating cable and pyrolisis.

It is also not produced in large enough quantities at the early stages of a flaming fire.

CO should only be used in small room <50m squared where it will have a similar response to smoke heads and where there is a risk of a deep seated fire....so perhaps outside a laundry cupboard.

It can be used as supplementry detection in most systems....and this will help in some areas where thermal barriers exist.

My advice would be to go for Multisensors and maybe use CO as a supplement, such is the risk. Perhaps a smoke test can be performed with fans running to see what the reaction time is?
Thanks Wozzer. Couple of good points there. When you suggest multi sensor are you looking at rate of rise and optical? I was thinking Optical/rate of rise/CO.

Offline wozzer38

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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2008, 09:10:23 AM »
Ah ok Kurnal, see your point. Yes i was just thinking Optical/Heat...but if you can afford all three sensors then it would be a decent solution.

Offline David Rooney

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ceiling fans adjacent to smoke detectors
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2008, 01:47:42 PM »
errr.... residential care home gents....

They are not going to spend money on multiple detectors.... and we don't know that the fire system will handle multicriteria detectors, and even if it does, would they be any good when the fan is working ??

I would assume that the fans are running when required during the day for ventilation, and early detection of a fire would probably be handled by staff.

Isn't it cheaper and easier to fit a timer to each fan to turn it off after 6.00 pm when there are probably less staff on ??
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Offline kurnal

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ceiling fans adjacent to smoke detectors
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2008, 05:35:47 PM »
Quote from: David Rooney
errr.... residential care home gents....

They are not going to spend money on multiple detectors.... and we don't know that the fire system will handle multicriteria detectors, and even if it does, would they be any good when the fan is working ??

I would assume that the fans are running when required during the day for ventilation, and early detection of a fire would probably be handled by staff.

Isn't it cheaper and easier to fit a timer to each fan to turn it off after 6.00 pm when there are probably less staff on ??
Nah. Thats far too sensible- specially for a fire alarm engineer.

Offline John Dragon

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ceiling fans adjacent to smoke detectors
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2008, 08:29:21 PM »
If the fan is only moving air round the room as opposed to extracting air to outside, would it have much effect on the time the detector takes to activate? Surely in the event of a fire the fan will be moving smoke laden air around and into the detector?

Offline kurnal

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ceiling fans adjacent to smoke detectors
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2008, 03:52:54 PM »
I suppose it depends on the location of the fire and  temperature of the fire plume and volume and shape of the space. I dont think we could make any generalisations really.

Offline John Dragon

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« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2008, 06:59:36 PM »
Another consideration is the amount of dusty, linty type of rubbish that collects in detectors when a fan is nearby, a common source of falsies!

Clevelandfire

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ceiling fans adjacent to smoke detectors
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2008, 07:18:23 PM »
Quote from: David Rooney
errr.... residential care home gents....

They are not going to spend money on multiple detectors.... and we don't know that the fire system will handle multicriteria detectors, and even if it does, would they be any good when the fan is working ??

I would assume that the fans are running when required during the day for ventilation, and early detection of a fire would probably be handled by staff.

Isn't it cheaper and easier to fit a timer to each fan to turn it off after 6.00 pm when there are probably less staff on ??
Totally disagree unless you can guarantee staff will always be present, which of course they won't.