Fire Door between a Living Room and a bedroom!

[Donna]

Someone I know is having a disabled adaptation done to their house,
On the original plans, access to the double bedroom was through a sliding door from the living room, the door being the width of 900mm.
It has now been suggested that this door now needs to be a Fire Door to meet Building legislation, as it is off the Living room, But the Disabled person was needing it to be a sliding door, and to be left slid open, when they are in bed ill, but wanting to communicate with family members in the living room, also sliding doors are easier for them to negoitiate giving the room available on the other side of the door,

Does anyone know the law on this one please?

Ps, there are french doors leading to the garden from the bedroom also!

[kurnal]

Hi Donna
No need for fire doors in the situation you describe. As there are french windows leading to the garden, the bedroom is not an inner room. It would be wise to keep the key to the french window in a location where they can be easily found in case of a fire in the lounge.
Even if fire doors were provided, under the approved document B published April 2007 self closers are no longer recommended in dwelling houses except in unusual circumstances.

[CivvyFSO]

The only problem I can forsee here is if other people need to use the living room as a means of escape, to protect the route out then FD20 doors could be required to protect the escape route from a fire in the bedroom.

[Big T]

Its a simple one.

Remove the door after it has been installed. As a domestic premise It cannot be enforced. Many of the modern apartments have "Manhattan" style layouts where the bedroom is seperated from living room/kitchen area by a sliding door.

However, from a personal perspective I would want a 30 minute door between my room and a living room, especiaslly if my mobility was impaired. Are there times when your friend may not be able to get out unassisted?

[Donna]

For the last 15 years, there has been NO door between the Kitchen and the lounge, there has just been a "door sized" arch,
When in the Kitchen, there is easy clear access to the main front door, and to the back door, this is a pre-war 1927 3 bed semi-detached house,
Just for a rough layout,
Come in front door, stairs up the middle of house, walk through into kitchen, which is to the right of the middle stairs, (back door is now facing you) and turn left, go under the arch (which is the back of the stairs)
Now in the living room, there is a 3 pane window facing front of house, and the 2 pane window at the rear of the room, will now be a new doorway going to a "new build" double bedroom with french doors to the back garden/drive.

The proposed "fire door" is to go where the 6ft 6" understairs archway is?

The disabled person also has a phobia of being shut in, and suffers tunnel vision, this door is going to be an awkward obstuction, for normal living anyway.

Its just that Social Services Occupational Therapists, can be very intimidating, and I cant understand why they are wanting to make the person in the wheelchair get over stressed about another obstruction that I genuinely dont think is legislation as the OT insists it is?

[kurnal]

Yes but why pay for a fire door if you are intending to remove it and if in any case it is not a requirement to achieve building Regulations compliance?

Unless there is something I have overlooked there is no such requirement in the approved documents in the circumstances Donna describes

[Big T]

They want to install it, so let them. Then remove it yourself. Why argue with the OT about it forever?

[Donna]

Because there is an additional stud wall that needs to be created, at an angle, that takes up unneccesary room, much needed for wheelchair removability, even though the arch will be slightly ammended, the actual fire door and additional walling needed to support he door is about 2 feet away from the original walkway...the Tenant cannot understand why the design cant be left open, as it has been, for the last 15years,.....the arch way is so very slightly narrower that the proposed 900m fire door, thats why additional walling has to be installed...just to "house" the fire door! as with door frame, it cannot go in the exact position of the previously open arch.
If anything, the new proposed "Door" and then having to negotiate an approx 870mm wide arch, will be more of a hinderance surely, especially as the disabled person has difficulty with doors anyway.

The door is not between the bedroom and the living room, or the bedroom and the kitchen....the door is between the living room and Kitchen...theres never been one there before.

I think now that its been said that in a domestic home the fire door is unforceble in law...then it might be allowed to be built...building signed off, and then some sledge hammer work to an unwanted stud wall.......and neat removal of the fire door!

[kurnal]

Hi Donna
That makes more sense now.
Kitchens are always considered to be of higher risk than other rooms. As the kitchen is open to the lounge and the bedroom there is a chance that a radidly growing fire- say a chip pan - may develop and overcome the occupant of the bedroom before they have time to escape.

The OT is recommending fire doors to buy time for escape. It is NOT a requirement of the Building Reglations but does make some sense. However it has to be balanced against the other needs of the occupier, and it may be possible to achieve a similar level of safety in another way- for example if they do not use a conventional chip pan, if they have a bed time routine of switching things off etc. If the sliding door was fitted it would only need to closed whilst the occupant sleeping.

Its down to their own personal  choice at the end of the day. Nobody can make them install the door in their own home if they dont want it.

[Donna]

No cooking is will be going on in this kitchen, Microwave Yes, (maybe) No Gas Mains, No Chip pan, no naked flames, or open fires!

[kurnal]

How quickly would the occupier be able to raise themselves and make their way out of the French windows?
Do they have any support or assistance? If so where do  they sleep? Do  we have smoke detectors throughout?
Who is funding the alterations?

[Big T]

I would suggest having a fire door between the kitchen and the living room is necessary.

Especially if mobility is an issue where possibly slow evacuation would be present.

When I say it is not enforceable, it means that once installed, if you were to remove it you could not be forced to replace it. However as part of the building controls a fire door in this area would be a requirement for sign off

[kurnal]

I would suggest having a fire door between the kitchen and the living room is necessary.

Especially if mobility is an issue where possibly slow evacuation would be present.

When I say it is not enforceable, it means that once installed, if you were to remove it you could not be forced to replace it. However as part of the building controls a fire door in this area would be a requirement for sign off

Without doors isnt it just like a bedsit as far as Building Regs are concerned? there are many bedsits and galleried homes where the hitchen and lounge are integral with the sleeping area. I agree with you over the mobility issue though and the benefit of increasing the available time to escape.

[Donna]

No worries, this afternoon Problem solved, the planning dept has said that the door and stud walling can be removed from the proposed amendments to previously drawn up plans!

The plans were drawn up by 2 Council employed Architects who specialise on Disabled adaptations for the County...they did NOT put the Fire door in the original plans (as it obviously wasn't necessary, or they would have done it as a matter of course)

The plans were ready to roll (so to speak) and at the last minute...the OT decided that SHE wanted a door there, (I've now found out) and she had "heard" that the disabled tenant wanted a kitchen table and chairs so she could eat in the same place with her family....The OT said, this was not a "need" for the tenant to have a table to sit upright and eat, as a tray would suffice, and therefore made the Architect "add" the Fire Door and stud walling as a last minute amendment, sadly this would then mean the Wheelchaired tenant could then NOT have their kitchen table, simply because there would be NO room for one!

Well Thanks for all you comments...I was fairly genned up on general Disability issues, but didnt know how to advice this person about a "Fire Door"
But the OT has backed down now, and the Building and planning guys have happy with that.

Gets a bit bad when someone can have the power over someone to dictate if they regard it a "need" for another person to be able to eat socially at a table with their family, doesn't it, and then insist on a feature in someones home...that will deliberately not give them room.......we will all have to worry when we get older or fall so ill health that we rely on these people?

But I am sure this was a minority case, and more people receive good, fair treatment, rather than bad.

Had it not been resolved today, aparently legal action under human rights issues would have been started.

[kurnal]

we will all have to worry when we get older or fall so ill health that we rely on these people?

One of the benefits of a caring society is that these people are available to support vulnerable members of society and in some cases seemingly limitless funds can be made available - for example to provide care and supported living accommodation for people with learning disabilities. Thats to be celebrated but it does bring this new vulnerability- to the whims of those who are appointed to overview their needs. On the other hand its a very differnet picture for older people.  

My personal experience of social services when asked for support for elderly relatives is that you wont see them for dust.  Managers will blaze in and promise the earth then never be seen again.  My Mum for example lives in an area where the allocated district office recognise that its their patch but is too remote for them to service, whereas the area office 2 miles away in the local town say they cant help because its outside their patch.