Author Topic: Sprinklers in Schools: Dissertation Research  (Read 13296 times)

Offline ianmoore4102

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Sprinklers in Schools: Dissertation Research
« on: July 24, 2008, 06:22:41 PM »
I have read some of the threads relating to sprinklers in new school buildings and Building Bulletin 100 and there seems to be a lot of information already out there.

I would like to write my dissertation on "Fire protecting the schools of the future:  Are sprinklers the answer?" but the object of a dissertation is to cover new ground.

Can you forum members advise me whether there is a gap in the current information that would allow me to carry out some good new research, or has this ground already been covered elsewhere?

Thanks

Offline kurnal

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Sprinklers in Schools: Dissertation Research
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2008, 06:39:17 PM »
Theres a lot in that question of yours. There is loads of info on the benefits of sprinklers, but implicit in your subject is a query why they have not so far taken off which could lead to an analysis  of the reasons and ways to overcome the barriers. Its mainly funding issues but also  fears of the possible consequences of vandalism, a lack of knowledge amongst architects, inappropriate prejudice by those senior managers and politicians who hold the purse strings.  

The issue is preventing schools burning down with all the consequences that brings to a community, but designers and politicians are allways looking for trade offs in lieu of sprinklers, which to some extent undermines the issue because then the focus is corrupted to finding shortcuts elsewhere, and if the sprinklers are not self financing then they wont go in the spec.

Offline xan

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Sprinklers in Schools: Dissertation Research
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2008, 09:35:55 AM »
I worked as an adviser to a county council that included this issue.There was a policy of fitting sprinklers to new schools /major refurbs after the council carrying out a 'risk assessment', which in most cases ruled them out (better compartmentation, detection etc).The national 'risk assessment' tool that was issued last year was not specific enough,and after running it over various scenarios always came up with the same answer,i.e. fit sprinklers.With limited funds the tool therefore was disregarded by the council.The other issue was that there were many schools (and there was a massive stock of SCOLA type builds that were poorly designed and maintained)that did not conform with the basics of fire safety e.g. protected staircases etc,so it would be difficult to  justify diverting the limited funds from an 'essential' to a 'desirable'.I understand that some of the 'new deal for schools money may come with a pre requisite that sprinklers are fitted.

Offline AM

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Sprinklers in Schools: Dissertation Research
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2008, 09:59:19 AM »
We had a new school whose developers were adamant that sprinklers were not to be provided, and as it's outside of the Building Regulations, it couldn't be enforced by Building Control or the FRS. What changed their mind was a statement from the local authority's legal dept, who said that not complying with the spirit of BB100 would affect the Authority's 'Best Value' targets, which could affect future funding. Other PFI schemes have put in sprinklers because of asset protection and the possiblity of penalties if they are unable to provide a school building (ie thru' fire losses) over the lifetime of their contract. Money talks.

Chris Houston

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Sprinklers in Schools: Dissertation Research
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2008, 12:22:58 PM »
Quote from: AM
whose developers were adamant that sprinklers were not to be provided
Money does talk, but why were they so anti-sprinkler?  I've never know anyone to be anti-fire alarm, what it is about sprinklers that people are so against?

Offline AM

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Sprinklers in Schools: Dissertation Research
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2008, 08:53:58 AM »
Quote from: Chris Houston
Quote from: AM
whose developers were adamant that sprinklers were not to be provided
Money does talk, but why were they so anti-sprinkler?  I've never know anyone to be anti-fire alarm, what it is about sprinklers that people are so against?
Because they think its a cost over & above the minimum requirements, and don't understand the benefits that it can have, and by the time fire consultants are brought in, it's too late to change their minds. I've had several jobs where we've had issues with compartmentation and ventilation issues, which could have been solved in a more cost effective manner if sprinklers had been considered at an early stage, instead of getting us in when construction has already started.

Offline Mr. P

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Sprinklers in Schools: Dissertation Research
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2008, 09:15:43 AM »
What do insurers say?  With ever increasing payouts, they are looking at ways of saving.  If sprinklers are an option that will save a build from total loss, (and the cost of install is far less than a new school,) they may with-hold payment. End result, the authority has to find even more finances for repair/rebuild and temp alternative accomodation.
Risk assess point - chances of fire in schools? Getting higher it seems to me...

Offline ianmoore4102

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Sprinklers in Schools: Dissertation Research
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2008, 09:57:30 AM »
I am looking for anecdotal evidence that I can look into to either confirm or otherwise.  one suggestion is that Approved Inspectors are less likely to demand sprinkler systems that Local Authority Building Control.

Does anyone have any experience of this?

Chris Houston

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Sprinklers in Schools: Dissertation Research
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2008, 10:49:59 AM »
Quote from: Mr. P
What do insurers say?
They support sprinklers in schools.

Quote from: Mr. P
they may with-hold payment.
Unlikely.

Quote from: Mr. P
Risk assess point - chances of fire in schools? Getting higher it seems to me...
Pretty high, 3 a week go on fire, the worrying trend is the increase towards day time fires.

Offline AM

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Sprinklers in Schools: Dissertation Research
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2008, 11:37:41 AM »
Quote from: ianmoore4102
I am looking for anecdotal evidence that I can look into to either confirm or otherwise.  one suggestion is that Approved Inspectors are less likely to demand sprinkler systems that Local Authority Building Control.

Does anyone have any experience of this?
Local Authorities or AI's can't demand sprinklers unless its a requirement of the Building Regs, which does not include for property protection. These bodies can only enforce the bits of BB100 which is relevant to the Building Regulations. The property protection bits in the blue boxes, including the sprinkler requirements are to minimise losses and is subject to a cost benefit risk assessment, and are there to satisfy the aims of the Secretary for Schools (or whatever the dept is called this week) and are not enforcable by either AIs or BCO's. The inclusion of sprinklers in schools is over seen by a govt Quango, and could affect the 'Best Value' rating of an LEA.

Offline Mr. P

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Sprinklers in Schools: Dissertation Research
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2008, 08:22:47 AM »
Chris, you say insurers would be unlikely to with-hold payment. I was looking from a point that as sprinklers are heavily supported and recommended, then they may consider that not all reasonably practicable measures were taken by not installing.
Thanks for the figures and opinion.

Chris Houston

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Sprinklers in Schools: Dissertation Research
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2008, 08:37:05 AM »
I know what you are thinking, but that is not how insurance companies operate.  Let's say someone had a sprinkler system and turned it off.  They would still have to pay out unless there was a "warranty" in the policy saying that it had to be on.

Insurers don't have the benefit of making an assessment of how well you controlled your risk afterwards when "decising" to pay out, unless they forced you do do something in the contract pre-fire, then as long as the peril was covered, they will be paying.

If they could do this, they would almost always find some failing in risk management (otherwise there would not have been a fire/theft) with each and every loss.

Offline kurnal

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Sprinklers in Schools: Dissertation Research
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2008, 09:33:27 AM »
As far as I am aware some local authorities do not insure their school buildings but prefer to save the premium and stand a few knocks now and again (and again)

Chris Houston

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Sprinklers in Schools: Dissertation Research
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2008, 01:45:27 PM »
It is true.  Self insurance is a sensible thing to do if you are large enough to be able to swallow a few big losses, as any insurance company will calcualte the same risks plus add in some profit.

The disadvantages of this are:
1 - the insurnace market operates in a 5 to 10 year cycle.  When insurance is cheap it is called the "soft" market and this occurs when insurnace companies are keen to get business.  When it is expensive this is called the "hard" market and this occurs when the new entries to the market have some big losses and decided they don't want ot play any more.  In some soft times insurance can cost less than it should even those who self insure might be better off buying underpriced cover in the open market.
2 - insurnace companies employ people like me who go round and tell you to install fire detection or move the bins away, this reduces their losses.  If those who self insure don't manage their risks well, they might have more losses than they can afford.

All local authorities used to self insure in a big pot.  It was called Municipal Mutual.  It went bust becase no matter hw much they put the premiums up by the losses kept growing.  Partly due to bad risk management, partly cos they paid out on every claim, even those that were not covered by the policy.

Zurich Municipal took over Municipal Mutual about 13 years ago I think and kept many of the staff, which is why they tend to understand local authorities pretty well and still are the main player in a market that many insurers are still scared off due to the school fire problem.

So in summary, good risk management is the key to insurance.

In recent times some local authorities, Hampshire I think self insure.  As does the NHS.  It is also common for massive UK companies.  Self insurers (captives) tend to be run from tax haven such as Bermuda.

Offline xan

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Sprinklers in Schools: Dissertation Research
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2008, 12:51:50 AM »
Quote from: Mr. P
What do insurers say?  With ever increasing payouts, they are looking at ways of saving.  If sprinklers are an option that will save a build from total loss, (and the cost of install is far less than a new school,) they may with-hold payment. End result, the authority has to find even more finances for repair/rebuild and temp alternative accomodation.
Risk assess point - chances of fire in schools? Getting higher it seems to me...
Authority was sef insuring,so no savings to be made there.
Was it Sainsbury's that said many years ago(after a loss in chichester?) that it was more affordable for them to lose one store per year than retro fit sprinklers?