B & B's in Uproar over new fire legislation

[kurnal]

The B&B association campaign in respect of what they see as heavy handed application of the fire safety order is publicised today.

http://www.bandbassociation.org/fire.html

They have written to the Secretary of State- a further link on the sits leads to the text of this.

[nearlythere]

The B&B association campaign in respect of what they see as heavy handed application of the fire safety order is publicised today.

http://www.bandbassociation.org/fire.html

They have written to the Secretary of State- a further link on the sits leads to the text of this.

"It is expressly not intended to place onerous new burdens on businesses or render whole categories of small businesses economically unviable."

The Government's view is that it doesn't place any new burdens on any business because since the H&S at Work legislation was introduced Risk Assessments should have been carried out, to include the risk from fire, and control measures put in place. In theory there should be nothing to do other than carry out a Fire Risk Assessment.
Because small businesses , including B&Bs, did not bother to abide by the legislation at the time they now have to play catch up.
However, I sympathise with small B&Bs where they are required to install BS5839 systems. If self contained is good enough for a family residence surely it is good enough for a small B&B.

[kurnal]

The Government's view is that it doesn't place any new burdens on any business because since the H&S at Work legislation was introduced Risk Assessments should have been carried out, to include the risk from fire, and control measures put in place. In theory there should be nothing to do other than carry out a Fire Risk Assessment.
Because small businesses , including B&Bs, did not bother to abide by the legislation at the time they now have to play catch up.
However, I sympathise with small B&Bs where they are required to install BS5839 systems. If self contained is good enough for a family residence surely it is good enough for a small B&B.

But nearlythere most of these small B&Bs are outside the scope of the workplace H&S legislation as most of them dont employ anybody, they offer a room or two in thir own private homes. So there has never been any legal requirement to carry out risk assessments prior to 1 Oct 2006

[val]

Kurnal,

This is old hat from the B & B Association who are running the campaign to bolster their commercial profile. The relevant ministers have already met and the industry's concerns are being addressed. Wait until the autumn when 'nearlythere' (is that a reference to pension or grey matter), can have a go at another pragmatic attempt to help small businesses.

[kurnal]

Val
I have worked for many of the small B&Bs and their concerns are very real over the interpretation of the guidance and the imposition of  prescriptive standards in many cases, which can be viewed as disproportionate.  I agree with them that there is a real probblem and hope the new guidance - I think this may be what you infer - is very clear on the need for proportionate risk control measures- the original draft Scots sleeping guide expressed this so well in respect of fire doors in small premises- and that is the tone that is needed.

[nearlythere]

The Government's view is that it doesn't place any new burdens on any business because since the H&S at Work legislation was introduced Risk Assessments should have been carried out, to include the risk from fire, and control measures put in place. In theory there should be nothing to do other than carry out a Fire Risk Assessment.
Because small businesses , including B&Bs, did not bother to abide by the legislation at the time they now have to play catch up.
However, I sympathise with small B&Bs where they are required to install BS5839 systems. If self contained is good enough for a family residence surely it is good enough for a small B&B.

But nearlythere most of these small B&Bs are outside the scope of the workplace H&S legislation as most of them dont employ anybody, they offer a room or two in thir own private homes. So there has never been any legal requirement to carry out risk assessments prior to 1 Oct 2006

Yes, you are quite right. I was thinking about small businesses in general, which could include B&Bs, with small numbers of employees who still did not bother with the legislation.
Is there not a requirement to carry out a Risk Assessment under the H&S at Work 1974 legislation?

[Chris Houston]

I'm happy to admit that I am not familiar with the unique issues that B&Bs' face. So I'm keen to learn. I'd disagree that just because one accepts a level of risk in ones own home that the same level of risk should be acceptable to a paying customer, so I put it to the B&B owners - what is it about the (surely flexible and desirable) aspects of the UK legislation that you don't like?

[johno67]

I stayed in a B&B last night. A 3 storey building run by Mr & Mrs Proprieter (very nice couple) with a single staircase, heat detectors in the rooms, smokes in the means of escape, emergency lighting etc. On the back of the bedroom door was the fire action notice with the proud statement 'Fire Certificated'. On returning from a nice Indian meal and a beer (as you do) I noticed that the fire doors to the lounge and the dining room on the ground floor (leading onto the single escape route) and every fire door on the staircase, plus the fire door leading to every unoccupied bedroom was wedged open. So after a mamoth session of removing wedges and closing said fire doors, I spent a fairly restless night tossing and turning in my overheated 2nd floor room. On checking out the following morning I pointed out my concerns to Mr & Mrs Proprieter who really didn't have a clue about the potential disaster they could have been responsible for and were pretty shocked. I should imagine there are many many B&B's and Guest Houses in the same situation. And those are the ones who were used to the Fire Service inspecting.

[Thomas Brookes]

We maintain equipment in hundreds of B & B's and small hotels, and have  also done dozens of upgrades to B&B fire systems and I can confirm that on the hole most of the small B&B owners have not got a clue about fire safety.
And nearly all say "we have had a fire certificate for years" or "the fire service never pointed this out before" etc etc.

One very poor example was a three storey building with 8 bedrooms, they had just had an audit from the Fire & Rescue Services and had been told that they had to get their fire alarm and emergency lights serviced to the relivant british standards.
We were called in to do the work.
On the ground floor there was one breakglass point (no sounders or detectors) on the first floor they had one of the very old Gent units, a big box breakglass on the front of the box and a built in bell. Nothing on the top floor.
When we told them they needed a total upgrade they went mad. "we have done a fire risk assessment and the fire service have passed it and i just need to get it maintained".
When I calmed them down I asked to see their fire risk assessmen, it was a printed sheet with tick boxes downloaded from the internet. I asked how did the fire office assess the risk assessment. he said " he sat in the kitchen and looked through the assessment and typed the details into his laptop, with out looking round. "so he took your risk assessment on face value and used your answers i said"

When I pointed out that on the risk assessment he had ticked a yes  box that said does your building have a full automatic system that complys with BS5839-1, and that he had not got any detectors anywhere and that he had lied on a legal document where if someone was to die from a fire he could be charged with manslaughter, he suddenly went very white and more interested in what he should have in his building.

My experence is that a lot of these places have been getting away without even the basics of fire safety in their sites.
I always think to myself when visiting these buildings is this. "If my children were to stay in this building on the very top floor or remote room and a fire started, would they be able to escape safely".
We are the professional in fire safety, we are the voice that can speak for the people who may die in that building if we do not speak up and do a proper job, and we all need to be aware if we do a poor job, we also could be stood in court should someone die in the fire.

[kurnal]

My argument is not to defend shocking standards that exist in many B&Bs and hotels up and down the land. I agree there are many such places and they need to be brought into line before someone gets hurt.
And too many people are carrying out their own risk assessments based on tick box checklists downloaded from the web or using the audit forms from the guide as a risk assessment and if in doubt ticking what they think to be the answer that gives them the least hassle.
Theres so much ignorance and complacency out there.

My only difficulty has been with the lack of proportionality out there and the inflexibility that is often applied when an audit does take place.  That the same standards that would have been imposed in certificated premises in the past is now being imposed in a 2 story chocolate box cottage or working farmhouse without regard to character and nature of the building.

For example places that carefully vet every guest before inviting them to share their home, that the owner supervises what goes on to preserve their home and its possessions, the owner makes it their place to be last to retire,  the owner sleeps in the room next door to the guests and can be guaranteed to get people moving quickly in the event of an alarm sounding, saving valuable time. You dont even get that in the Hilton.

[David Weston]

I am David Weston, Chairman of the Bed & Breakfast Associaton.  This is my first post here.  I am saddened (but not surprised) by the patchy level of understanding shown (though "Kurnal" is well-informed) - and by "Val's" comment that our campaign is only about raising our "commercial profile".   We are a trade association and are campaigning on this because our members tell us that this is the single biggest issue affecting them at the moment.   A number of small businesses have closed down already and their local areas are of course then affected by the resultant fall in tourism.
We B&B owners are of course 100% in favour of appropriate fire safety - our families live in our properties too, apart from anything else.
The B&B Association (BBA) is NOT against the RRFSO as it is written and was intended - it is explicitly a deregulatory measure and non-prescriptive.   It is risk-based.   (It also expressly does not apply to "domestic premises").
What we have seen is highly inconsistent, and often disproportionate, ENFORCEMENT of the RRFSO by local fire & rescue services.  Very small B&Bs which are family homes letting one, two or three of their bedrooms to paying guests rather than family members are often being "told" by their fire & rescue service that they must instal fire doors, comprehensive integrated alarm systems, and even emergency lighting systems.   Hundreds of B&Bs are closing or contemplating closure.  
Our concerns, far from being motivated by raising our "commercial profile" (whatever that means), are shared by VisitBritain, all the UK regional tourist boards we have spoken to, and by the trade associations representing the self-catering, farmstay and pub accommodation providers.  The Minister of Tourism was concerned enough to raise this with the Fire Safety Minister recently.  Officials at DCLG itself have told us "we certainly don't underestimate the concerns around business viability and motivation following the introduction of the Order, and the adverse impact that the approach being taken by some fire safety officers is having on the [tourism] industry".  Not only this, but very senior officials from CFOA have admitted that there is "a problem".
We have now (1 Aug) been told by DCLG that the Fire Minister will be "encouraging a more pragmatic and common-sense approach".  This will involve "establishing benchmark measures for smaller premises".
We hope all this will eventually achieve what Government intended when the RRFSO was written: a proportionate, sensible risk-based fire safety regime.

[Thomas Brookes]

Hello David,

This is not just happening to small businesses its happening to large and small, the fire service do not seem to have any comon ground that their officers use.
Unfortunately they are the law and it sometimes can be a nightmare to get them to see sence, how ever and this is from bitter experence sometimes you need to make a formal complaint and then they seem to listen a bit more, sometime they don't and then you have to take your complaint a little higher.

We had a complaint go as high as the old Dep Priministers Office a few years back over what fire officers were telling a group of 100 accomadation owners in our area about fire alarm systems, So there are channels to complain to but in the first instance try to speak to the officer direct and if you feel he is being unreasonable go to his boss and then to the chief fire officer of your county. They are not God they make mistakes like the rest of us and as long as you research the issue they will sometimes back down.

Unfortunately some small guest houses (and definately not all) because they are a house with a few rooms being used for paying customers, do not rate fire safety as a important issue. And these odd few premises can give the small operators a bad name, and maybe thats why the fire officers are being tough!.
My only thoughts are for the safety of people and I feel one death is one to many, unfortunately what ever industry you are in now we all have hoops to jump through, I have my hoops which involve spending thousands of pounds a year on certification, training and acreditation just to prove we are competent to carry out our jobs we have been doing for the last 20 years.
It will I feel take a few years for the fire services to get on top of this.

Now just to play devils advocate for a minute
It is strongly reccomended that in a private home we all fit smoke detectors and in new builds its usually included as part of the building regs, so why should a B&B not install some fire precautions, are the people staying in their premise not worth saving because they are only paying £25 a night rather than £120 an night in a Hotel somewhere!

[Chris Houston]

I am saddened (but not surprised) by the patchy level of understanding shown (though "Kurnal" is well-informed) - and by "Val's" comment that our campaign is only about raising our "commercial profile".

David,

Thanks for joining the site, but I can't understand why you are sad by the level of understanding that FireNet users have of B&B issues.  This site can be used by anyone; users tend to be fire fighters, fire safety officers, consultants, insurance people, students, people who want to work for the fire service etc, but can be used by anyone and everyone and you can't expect all these people to know about the problems faced by B&B operators.  To take my example, I doubt most people know about the problems faced by the insurance industry (which I work in), but I don't get upset about this, I just see it as an opportunity to share some knowledge.

Regards,

Chris.

[nearlythere]

Hello Thomas and David.
I think the main cause for concern is, as Thomas acknowledges, that many small B&Bs have no fire safety measures at all. I agree that in the case of small B&Bs there is a case of over provision resulting in disproportionate expense and, in the case of detection, an interlinked domestic battery/mains system should be considered adequate.
After all they are have proved their worth in the type of sleeping risk where people are more likely to die from an outbreak of fire. Their own homes.  
I can assure you that many, many businesses, be they sleeping risks or otherwise, would not provide any fire safety measures at all if they thought could get away with it, and many do.

[Ashley Wood]

Hello David,

A few months ago I contacted the local B&B association in Norfolk offering my services for an up and coming meeting. I was happy to do a presentation and give advice free. Guess what, I did not even get a response. If, as I am sure it is, such a crucial and important subject for them, why did they not take me up on my offer? I know you can't talk for this group, but if I was offered the chance to talk with an experienced fire adviser free of charge I would have jumped at it.