Brigade Correspondance - Enforcement Letters and Reports

[Midland Retty]

I've decided to start a new thread to discuss post fire safety audit reports and other correspondance sent out by various fire authorities across the country.

They relate mostly to letters sent out under the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 but maybe applicable to letters sent out under the Fire & Rescue Services Act 2004 and others.

Alot of you have mentioned that you feel that the post fire audit reports are very hard to follow, and unclear about what is a legal requirement or just best practice guidance.

Please let us know of you experience of them. Would you like to see them scrapped and re-drafted? or do you feel they are fine as they are? What are your gripes or concerns?

Would welcome opinions from all involved i.e.; members of the public, responsible persons, assessors / consultants, fire safety managers and Inspecting officers

ONE FINAL NOTE:-

My advice is that if you are unhappy about the reports you receive you should contact the fire authority and tell them. If the general consensus is that they are hard to understand then it may spark off a review of how the reports are worded.

Like anything if the powers that be  aren't told there is a problem nothing will be changed.

[Steven N]

I think the letters are almost brutal in tone, before now I've warned people during the audit that the letter will come in that form so it won't be such a shock. I think that is particularly important if we have had a sensible discussion during the audit picking up minor problems which will/have been addressed

[Shand]

Good call. Better Regulation Office and the new Compliance Code tells enforcers to consult with all interested parties.

I reckon there's a bit of clarification needed for none fire service folks though. The Chief Fire Officers Association (CFOA) developed the letters as a national standard package - did all FRA's adopt them cartre blanche? We certainly made some changes because they just weren't worded well. Also we need to remember that you can't just change these things willy nilly, you have to get them checked out by legal departments and in the interests of consistency this would have to be done across the country.

Fire inspectors get to feed back opinion through regional CFOA groups, lets get some opinion from everyone else. The audit process has just been reviewed & amended, maybe it's the turn of the letters next?

Do we have a member of the CFOA Reg Reform working group who could monitor this thread, take the comments back to the group and make comment on the logic behind the letters? I was there once but alas no more........

I'd also be really interested to see the package of letters etc. being used in Scotland - a lot of things that Scotland adopt seem to make a lot of sense to me.

[MrH]

Many brigades did not adopt CFOA standard letters because they were technically incorrect.
CFOA should have produced good quality letters which should have been adopted by all brigades, instead we have 40+ versions of standard letters and paragraphs.

[lambie]

MrH can you explain what you mean by not technically correct? for a while the letters being received did not give full information on where to get advice and guidance.  For instance there was no direction to independant legal advice. A notification of unsatifactory standard of fire safety audit, does that mean the audit was unsatifactory? Is it fire safety arrangements or should it be measures?
Is that what you mean by technical correctness, because at the end of the day these are legal documents and ought to be correct!

[CivvyFSO]

Dear Sir or Madam

Fire Safety - Fire Safety Risk Assessment - Animal Premises: CLG Guide

Your premises name here
 
With reference to the recent audit completed at your premises, it was noted that you do not comply with the above compulsory bible of fire safety.

It is unfortunate that your risk assessment done by someone named "Kurnal" is not suitable and sufficient, and it is also unfortunate how much he charged you for it as your premises simply does not match the guides. The inner room discovered did not have a horse in it. Page 71 of this guides clearly shows that any inner rooms should have a horse in them.

During the audit, the prevention and protection measures necessary to comply with your duties under the Order and for the adequate safety of relevant persons on the premises were discussed.  Wherever possible alternative methods of demonstrating compliance were also given, however, you may choose your own measures, providing that they culminate in a horse being in the inner room.
 
Due to the nature of the measures necessary, and your agreement to rectify these, it has been decided that you should confirm your intention to buy a horse in an action plan, together with suitable timescales for completion.  The measures to be completed should be placed in order of priority as discussed.

A diagram has been included to demostrate necessary measures:



Yours faithfully

[Midland Retty]

Now Now CivvyFSO... I won't have the Prof's work lambasted in this way. You've gone too far there.

I'd also like to announce that we did have a horse in our inner room but it bolted.

I think I need a holiday :S

[Davo]

CivvyFSO

two points
Everybody knows from a previous post how reasonable the Profs rates are!
Secondly in a basement situation the guide clearly states cows may be an acceptable alternative but my question is this-
Would everything need to be intrinsically safe if this alternative was chosen?


davo

[Midland Retty]

Davo - Ill pop my two pennies worth in here whilst Civvy considers his reply.

Three points

1) Yes the Prof's rates are reasonable, but how much does he charge for fire safety related work?

2) Please explain why you just bought Mrs Midland Retty into the conversation as an "acceptable alternative in a basement situation"?

3) As a member of the Police Farce do you envisage locked stable doors with a custody dressage sergeant and stable constable standing guard a suitable option to ensure horses look the right way out of vision panels in inner room situations thus complying with the RRO.

[Paul2886]

This will be ok if the horse undergos fire training and accepts the final exit push bar mechanism and doesn't try to make a bolt for this door

[Davo]

MR

I'm a civvy, and in any case we wouldn't put police horses in such rooms. Our lot are mental and would kick the VPs out toute suite!



davo

[Midland Retty]

Are you talking about police officers or horses here Davo ?

[Davo]

MR

The horses (and probably some of the Ops boys and girls)

And don't be so down on Mrs Retty, if I rmember correctly she sometimes drives you to the pub, how considerate is that??


davo

[Midland Retty]

She does drive me yes...mainly up the wall

[Davo]

MR

Ditto Mrs Davo

Do you think there is some secret course they go on??
davo