At the request of the Site Administrator

[Clevelandfire]

It would appear that Chris Houston has had to field complaints against posts I made on the B&B in uproar forum.
Chris fairly in my opinion expressed that the language I used could be construde as impolite but nothing more as some members have tried to imply. I am a Clevelander, I am long in tooth and do tend to say whats on my mind. Thats the way i am rightly or wrongly. If my tone, manner of the way in which i discuss things offends anyone I apologise however bear in mind it could be the way you interpret it.You can not judge the tone easily with written word. However my comments were taken out of context and if read again may I beileve exonerate me from some of the claims made, if as Chris said sometimes they weren't always polite.

I would note for instance however that swearing was removed from posts which were written by others.
and that is why Chris removed it. Swaapc was always welcome to reply back to me in a similar tone to the post I wrote to him but I have never sworn on this forum and would feel it totally inappropriate to do so, he choise to swear and that is why his post was removed as opposed to there being some fire service conspiracy to silence its critics through Chris.

I feel my comments were valid and that when several fire safety professionals both fire service and non fire service offered good polite, kind, sound reasonable advice as to why certain requirements were made in terms of fire safety to the gentleman concerned. All we had back was how he felt the fire service were completely over the top and that how fires do not occur in B&Bs. Fine I still had no problem with that and we pointed out still kindly and politely how the gentleman could challenge what he perceived may have been a fire officer being too prescriptive yet the argument rolled on despite several other posts that came in ebfore explaining quite clearly enforcement procedures fire safety methodology which he had not read.

It then got to the point where i believe we were encountering someone on a mission to deliberatley rally support using wild claims. There was first the prohibition notice that was mentioned which could not be issued because the officers ran out of time? Ive never heard of that ever before and many of us questioned it. Misinformed? or deliberately added to try and score points? if the latter it back fired

Then there were the gentleman's guests who in their droves just out of the blue commented to him how intrusive and nonsensical the installed fire precautions were. I find that a wee bit suspicious to be honest. Was it truly all guests? or maybe one or two? or perhaps none?

Where criticism of the fire service or any other organisation is made Im always happy to take that on board and take on the chin if necessary. I know the fire service isn't perfect by any means. And we do get things wrong. I know the B&B industry can be very much a cut throat business with some of the smaller B&Bs struggling to survive.

We all offered advice on how to help, and listen to Dave from the B&B Associations viewpoints and others which I felt were balanced and asked legitimate questions of the fire service and policy makers

But to me the sentiment of the poster who by the way said  " i work 365 days a year" in one breath " but oh i dont want your sympathy" in the next just did nothing for the debate.

It isnt me or anyone else making that gentleman work 365 days a year. Im sure we all work hard. But it seemed to suggest that just because the gentleman worked that ammount of time somehow he should be excused the requirement for fire precautions.

I pointed out that the gentleman might wish to protect something he works so hard for which fell mainly on deaf ears. I also pointed out that maybe perhaps if it was that much hard work and hassle for him to try something else.

Then we had the barrage of " Im going to have to close the B&B" yet we had all pointed out that fire precautions need not cost too much but no approach was made by the gentleman to expand on or explain what the fire officer had asked him to do / provide .I found that odd.

As a member on many forums I have witnessed deliberately false or misleading posters with hidden agendas trying to stir things up with half truths etc or say things which are just not true. I dont know if this is the case or not here, but I just feel that we are busy people who give out our advice free of charge and try and help people yet the gentleman concerned just would not listen to us. You can't debate like that and you can't help people like that so I decided to point that out to him, ifonly to try and make him pursue a different angle and actually ask constructive questions.

I have no beef with the B&B association or industry and will happily debate anything with anyone so long as it is sensible, grown up and constructive. If I'm wrong I'm man enough to admit it and move on.
Reading the posts again several members also conveyed sinicism toward the landlord because of some of the things he said. Admittedly some ofthem were more diplomatic but nonetheless they seemed a little weary of him.

That is my angle on this. Chris Houston has dealt with the issue and I would like to re-iterate he does this for free, and in his own time. Perhaps we should all remember that. Also I'd point out he is not a fire service sympathiser as someone already claimed and if you read his posts you would see he remains very much neutral and balanced.

[Chris Houston]

Clevelandfire,

Thanks for your explanation.  Please note that while I do this for free, am constantly trying to think of a way to make some money out of you all at some stage, so no sympathy is needed.  

I must admit to be confused as to who did the swearing, as I removed it I don't have a record of it.  I did support the complaints that the tone of your (Cleavelandfire's) note was perhaps not to the normal style we have on FireNet.  

Taking of my Admin hat and putting on my site users hat and natural curiosity about things, I too share the dismay that those who have claimed to be shutting down their B&B's are not telling us what it was that they were asked to do and why it was considered over the top.

I'm happy for this debate to continue, but I must warn site users that now that I've issued a "yellow card" on the subject I will encourage all site users to avoid swearing, name calling and getting personal.  My method of encouragement may include editing posts, suspending or even banning users.  I sincerely hope not to have to do any of those things.

[Davidrh]

Hello all
Its the 40 bed hotel owner again
Maybe the problem is very basic.
We all know that power corrups and ...etc etc.
FB's have been given a new power.
They like it (and will probable like it even more when courts start converting non prescriptive legislation into case law)...we (in the what shall I say..the real world) don't
I have only been on this forum a week or two and I can sense real antagonismn (even if I can't spell it)
Its such a shame. From my point of view it was all working very well before Prescott got into the act

[Galeon]

My personal view is that if anything the 'power'  that the Fire Service has actually been removed , as such.
Its been to long that Fire Safety was always left off the agenda .
The Fire Service had to change , and the good old days when you had a visit , and a polite reminder I will be back in 3 months ,(make sure you get it done) was far to relaxed , albeit it probably worked with most people.
I was with a client last year who had to complete some work , (which needed badly to be done) , the advice / comments from the fire officer in our view were incorrect , we challenged this in a professional way and the matter was resolved.
Therfore you as a hotel owner etc are given more choice to seek out and find a reputable qualified person to ensure that you are in compliance and with the correct information are at liberty to question any matters relating to fire safety that you may be required to address.
I think over the next few years all this fire safety issues will quieten down .

[kurnal]

Its such a shame. From my point of view it was all working very well before Prescott got into the act

Couldnt agree more. But Prescott didnt really affect fire safety law- he really messed up the operational side of the job. The changes to fire safety law were on the way anyway as a result of the European directive. The UK was out of line in retaining the prescriptive fire certification regime rather than fully embracing the concept of risk assessment into the UK fire legislation

[Eggcustard]

Hello all
Its the 40 bed hotel owner again
Maybe the problem is very basic.
We all know that power corrups and ...etc etc.
FB's have been given a new power.
They like it (and will probable like it even more when courts start converting non prescriptive legislation into case law)...we (in the what shall I say..the real world) don't
I have only been on this forum a week or two and I can sense real antagonismn (even if I can't spell it)
Its such a shame. From my point of view it was all working very well before Prescott got into the act

Where's the site adminstrator? This gent is implying that enforcing authorities are corrupt! (even though he can't spell it). I agree with Clevelandfire that Chris Houston is moderating at an inappropriate level and runs the risk of sanitising this forum to such an extent that it will become boring. Oh my god what have I said! Please don't yellow card me oh powerful one.
Chris, Joking aside, people are getting fed up and will leave this forum if you carry on intervening the way you do.

[Paul2886]

Chris,
You were quite right to intervene as you did. This forum is a brilliant way for each of us to exchange opinions and learn from each other. The posts that created this disagreement had deteriorated into 'small talk' with little reference to the original thread. It requires monotoring by someone otherwise it will deteriorate into nothing more 'swinging handbags'. Well done for keeping it professional

[Alan Keith]

Lads.   Give Chris a break!   I was one of those who urged him to intervene because the behaviour of a few contributers was undermining the aims of the forum.  He was very reluctant to do so, and I can now see why.  As a newcomer and an accommodation provider, I believe this forum to be a useful vehicle to build mutual understanding in a matter which is causing much anger and resentment.   Plain speaking is fine, but when this turns to insult, as it had done, those affected will inevitably stop contributing, which is a shame.   Let's maintain respect for each other and keep this dialogue going, otherwise it's all a waste of everyone's time

[kurnal]

You can never please all the people all the time.  

If you carry on as you are Chris I shall recommend that the site owner doubles your moderating fee.

[Chris Houston]

Where's the site adminstrator? This gent is implying that enforcing authorities are corrupt! (even though he can't spell it). I agree with Clevelandfire that Chris Houston is moderating at an inappropriate level and runs the risk of sanitising this forum to such an extent that it will become boring. Oh my god what have I said! Please don't yellow card me oh powerful one.
Chris, Joking aside, people are getting fed up and will leave this forum if you carry on intervening the way you do.

Are you serious?  I think the only thing I can be accused of is not moderating enough.  I deleted post that included swearing and I ASKED someone to consider appologising.  I was requested to do a lot more than I did, but I resisted because I value free speach over moderation.

So your posts hints that I should take action against someone for implying the fire service is corupt (I won't, on the basis of freedom of expression again) and then you say I moderate too much?

As a gesture of good will I have refunded your membership fees for the month and docked my wages for the day.

[Wiz]

It must be a thankless task moderating a forum and the theory that you can't please everyone all of the time certainly must be true.

However, I would suggest that more people will leave the forum if they consider they have been personally abused, than would stay if there was no moderation.

I particularly feel that newer members wouldn't stay very long and add potentially valuable contributions if they are personally abused on their first few postings.

Surely, we can all find a better way of supporting our own arguments other than personal abuse of those we disagree with?

It seems to me that Chris rarely moderates any abuse unless someone 'reports' it, and I personally would rather him step in even earlier to 'nip it in the bud'.

Conversely I think Chris intervenes too much when the forums are being used for humorous interchanges amongst members and makes things too businesslike and impersonal.

Does this forum allow a voting facility? Maybe all the members could vote on just what type of moderation they want on the forum?

[Wiz]

Where's the site adminstrator? This gent is implying that enforcing authorities are corrupt! (even though he can't spell it)......

I thought it was the agreed rule that spelling mistakes were ignored in e-communication and that no gain in argumentative advantage was attempted by highlighting it?

If not, many current posters on this forum will lose their argument without reference to it's validity through their lack of spelling ability (me included?)

If spelling ability is the sure way of promoting an opinion that others consider to be correct, or to win an argument can I please request the site administrator consider adding a spelling checker to the forum

[Chris Houston]

Wiz,

You are entitled to your views, but there are quite a number of assumptions on your post that are inaccurate.

To give you some idea, there are just over 33,000 posts on FireNet.  Exclusing adverts, I have probably deleted about 10 to 20 posts ever, closed about 5 debates, temporarily suspended 1 member, no real members have ever been permenantly banned, only spammers.  I have however emailed people privatly about 100 times and written to both parties when something controversial has happened, as the B&B camp will testify.

Any "controversial" decision I make are brought to the attention of the site owner.  All reports also go to him, so you can "report" me (although I'll see it).  

Most of my intervention is not prompted by reports, as I tend to spot things before someone reports them.

The software we use doesn't enable any sort of vote or poll, although I have suggested that we update the software to prevent the automated adverts we get, but either way, my style of moderating isn't going to change, so your only hope is that I get "fired".  For as long as I have the job, you are going to have to live with the way things are.  I can think of no other examples of anyone complaining about my decisions other than this example, where the "victim" has publicaly supported my decision.

[Chris Houston]

Where's the site adminstrator? This gent is implying that enforcing authorities are corrupt! (even though he can't spell it)......

I thought it was the agreed rule that spelling mistakes were ignored in e-communication and that no gain in argumentative advantage was attempted by highlighting it?

If not, many current posters on this forum will lose their argument without reference to it's validity through their lack of spelling ability (me included?)

If spelling ability is the sure way of promoting an opinion that others consider to be correct, or to win an argument can I please request the site administrator consider adding a spelling checker to the forum

I shall file your recommendation in the "suggestions from Wiz on how to to my job" box that I keep in my basement.

[Wiz]

Well Chris, My post contained only my opinions and many were prefaced by 'it seems to me'.

I have no reason to believe that you are doing a poor job or that you should change your moderating methods or that you should be 'fired' (unless we can get someone to do the job for less money

I personally believe the personal abuse allowed is too high and the humour allowed is too low. I don't expect anyone else to agree with me, particularly not you, but I would hope I would be allowed to voice my opinion on a forum discussing the subject.