Access for fire appliances

[Ricardo]

On a personal level what I do not understand is why the 45metres ?

I always took the 45metres distance,as being a reasonable distance for FF's to travel from a parking space to a dwelling/house, with their (heavier)equipment such as ladders, BA, without getting tooo exhausted.

[wee brian]

based on the BDAG work 45 is a bit too far. So you dont want to go over it much.

[kurnal]

based on the BDAG work 45 is a bit too far. So you dont want to go over it much.

We need goals nothing wrong with that. But come on in the circumstances described the additional 25m is totally insignificant in terms of effort.

25m extra on level ground to a low rise 2 storey house fire is going to be far less effort than carrying your kit up even a single flight of stairs. But how many people when assessing plans for access to the footprint take account of the distance to travel upstairs- could be up to 7 storeys without a firefighting lift!

The only relevance I can see is in terms of hosereel lengths. since appliances carry 60m  usually per drum, then 45m is within striking distance of a single reel in practical terms.

But even this doesnt really stand up to logic- cos we cant take hosereel up a high rise tower block and have to rely on delivery hose and risers. So why would hosereels be imperative for a dwelling? And if they were, why is a fire main a reasonable alternative to access?

[Tom Sutton]

based on the BDAG work 45 is a bit too far. So you dont want to go over it much.

Thanks wee brian you learn something new everyday. But only had a quick shuffty at the research but it seems to me that the 45M refer to the distance from a fire fighting staircase, then you would need a dry riser. This would I would agree with in full BA and dragging a 70mm hose behind you, I wouldn’t wish to travel any further. However there is a lot of stuff available and I need to delve deeper.

[FSO]

Our hose reels are 56 metres.

As I am sure you are aware, research into flashover and backdraft training has found that the most effective pressure for firefighting within a compartment is 15 bar.

Of course you are all aware that this pressure is unachieveable through a main delivery. That is why 45 metres to us is quite important.

Of course high pressure hose reels are extendable but this should not be relied upon. Also, where possible you will want to have the pump as close to the BA team as possible for effective communication between the ECO and pump operator.

Kurnal, I agree with your comments as regard to BS9251 sprinklers. I would consider enhanced detection as a compensation. I will however always recommend sprinklers as I feel this is the safest option and this is a perfect oppertunity to get them installed in another premises.

I remember a quote from John Prescott stating that sprinklers would be mandatory in new builds by 2008. Its a sign of the way things are going. Its only a matter of time.

[Tom Sutton]

FSO I didn’t realise how short the hose reels are now days, we also carried four lengths of flaked 44mm hose complete with branch has that practise been discontinued. Regarding communication what about the pack sets?

[FSO]

When you say pack sets, do you mean hand held radios?

Yes it would be lovely, but there are only 3 on an appliance. In initial stages of an incident, 1 would be with the BA team, 1 would be with the ECO and the last one with OIC. I appreciate its a nice to have, but it is nice as a pump op to be able to see the incident where possible.

Also with running out 70mm lengths as a covering jet will take a fair amount of water from the appliance before you can find a decent hydrant to supplement. (around 100 litres per 23 metre length).

We have never had flaked lengths in the back.

[Tom Sutton]

When you say pack sets, do you mean hand held radios?

Yes it would be lovely, but there are only 3 on an appliance. In initial stages of an incident, 1 would be with the BA team, 1 would be with the ECO and the last one with OIC. I appreciate its a nice to have, but it is nice as a pump op to be able to see the incident where possible.

Also with running out 70mm lengths as a covering jet will take a fair amount of water from the appliance before you can find a decent hydrant to supplement. (around 100 litres per 23 metre length).

We have never had flaked lengths in the back.

YES. It just lets you know how old I am.

Would the BA team be carrying Hand Held Radios in a small domestic?

I am not suggesting 70mm we carried 1.75 inch hose which would be 44mm in today’s money.

[kurnal]

I remember a quote from John Prescott stating that sprinklers would be mandatory in new builds by 2008. Its a sign of the way things are going. Its only a matter of time.

Who's he? Where is he now? Wasnt he someone whose government  tried

To persuade us all to use public transport while he ran two of the largest cars available?

To embrace a non violent society but was filmed on TV news  thumping someone?

Who said he was trying to free the fire service from racial and sexual harassment but was forced out of office as a result of an affair with his secretary?


I could go on. But everyime I think of him George Orwells Animal farm comes into mind.

I agree we need a National strategy for the implementation of  domestic sprinklers. The research work overseen by the ODPM a few years ago was thought by many to be flawed. I believe sprinklers need to be targetted to protect the lives of those most at risk from fire. We should start with all new social housing and new HMOs, but nobody is brave enough to do it. Instead we just pick on a few unfortunate souls who fall a little outside the guidance in ADB5 and impose sprinklers or dry mains upon them, regardless of risk, cost/benefit or circumstance.

[FSO]

When you say pack sets, do you mean hand held radios?

Yes it would be lovely, but there are only 3 on an appliance. In initial stages of an incident, 1 would be with the BA team, 1 would be with the ECO and the last one with OIC. I appreciate its a nice to have, but it is nice as a pump op to be able to see the incident where possible.

Also with running out 70mm lengths as a covering jet will take a fair amount of water from the appliance before you can find a decent hydrant to supplement. (around 100 litres per 23 metre length).

We have never had flaked lengths in the back.

YES. It just lets you know how old I am.

Would the BA team be carrying Hand Held Radios in a small domestic?

I am not suggesting 70mm we carried 1.75 inch hose which would be 44mm in today’s money.

Generally, yes they would be. The mic and lead on our sets is permanently attached to the facemask. Also the BA comms set can only be used on BA channels.

Also TB1/97 does say that where possible comms should be used.

[FSO]

I remember a quote from John Prescott stating that sprinklers would be mandatory in new builds by 2008. Its a sign of the way things are going. Its only a matter of time.

Who's he? Where is he now? Wasnt he someone whose government  tried

To persuade us all to use public transport while he ran two of the largest cars available?

To embrace a non violent society but was filmed on TV news  thumping someone?

Who said he was trying to free the fire service from racial and sexual harassment but was forced out of office as a result of an affair with his secretary?


I could go on. But everyime I think of him George Orwells Animal farm comes into mind.

I agree we need a National strategy for the implementation of  domestic sprinklers. The research work overseen by the ODPM a few years ago was thought by many to be flawed. I believe sprinklers need to be targetted to protect the lives of those most at risk from fire. We should start with all new social housing and new HMOs, but nobody is brave enough to do it. Instead we just pick on a few unfortunate souls who fall a little outside the guidance in ADB5 and impose sprinklers or dry mains upon them, regardless of risk, cost/benefit or circumstance.

I agree to a point Kurnal.

The dry main idea is silly. I have seen it happen in the past but I do not see what it achieves.

So, you say regardless of risk. Should I be expecting a risk assessment from the new occupants?? Of course not.
You can only assume who is going to move into a property. Of course they might move out in a years time. What happens then???

From my experience in community fire safety, the wealthier families are generally ignorrant towards fire safety placing them at pretty much the same risk to some social housing families.

Lets get it right while its still lines on paper!

[CivvyFSO]

CivvyFSO are you not using ADB Vol 2 to solve a situation in ADB Vol 1.

No. Flats (which this seemed to be talking about) are dealt with in ADB vol 2.

but it seems to me that the 45M refer to the distance from a fire fighting staircase

Access should be provided for the pump to get within 45m of every point of the projected plan area. (ADB Vol 2 Para 16.2b)

Older versions of ADB had this 45m stopping at the door to the flat.

Don't get me wrong here, I am not arguing that a riser needs to be in place in this instance, I am pointing out  what the guidance document states.

[Tom Sutton]

Civvy its a conversion of a coach house into four terraced houses which is under a conservation order. I agree with you it is clear about the 45M in both volume 1 and 2 but why 45M and what happens if you cannot achieve it?

I have tried to find the answers at http://www.bre.co.uk/adb/page.jsp?sid=395 to no avail at the moment

[CivvyFSO]

Ah, my misunderstanding sorry. I thought it was 4 flats.

If it is impossible/extremely impractical to acheive then the FRS/BC need to be reasonable in their approach. If the extra risk warrants sprinklers or a riser then those are viable options.

[wee brian]

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/professionals/en/1115315762230.html

Scroll down to the B5 queries - not a great help but it may clear a few things up.