Escape from enclosed covered car park area.

[Mar62]

I am currently trying to find a solution to a problem regarding providing a suitable method of escape from an enclosed covered car park. One of the staircases discharges to ground level into the car park area. From here the only way out is via the vehicle exit / entrance. The company doesnt really want to connect the gates to the fire alarm system for security reasons?? One suggestion has been made to providing the handle to mechanically open the gate and keeping it nearby the exit in a small cabinet (similar to an external extinguisher cabinet) and provide a daily check.

I know my thoughts but would welcome any comments. I would prefer something along the lines of an emergency overide switch (possibly a green emergency release break glass) located near to the gates but far enough away so no one can reach through the railings and signed etc?

Any other / better thoughts please?

[Chris Houston]

The company doesnt really want to connect the gates to the fire alarm system for security reasons??

I'd say tough luck, the law requires that doors (and presumably gates) open easily in the event of a fire and I doubt most people would have the time and skills to work out a crypton factor style gate/lever/handle-in-box challenge while escapring from a fire with 100 people behind them.

Get it to open automatically with battery back up in the event of a fire.

[nearlythere]

What type of persons will be using the stairway as an escape route? Staff only, Staff & public, etc. What type of gate is it? Is the stairway which discharges into the carpark an escape stairs, or required as an escape stairs, from the upper floors or is it to give carpark access only? What type of occupancy is the building? Does the carpark serve a single occupancy only?
So many questions

[kurnal]

What about a green box type break glass unit on the inside of the gate and omit the link to the fire alarm system?
This will be subject to the answers to the questions posed by nearlythere.

[Mar62]

Use of building is mainly for staff with the exception of normal daily visitors (no general public access at all). seven floors. second floor in use 24/7 for emergency call centre (worldwide vehicle assistance and such like).

Chris, that was my first thought to be honest!! But have been asked to come up with another possible solution. Really not happy with the handle in a cabinet lark!! Then there's the training issue on using it etc??

Yes the staircase is required as an escape staircase. The gate is a large wrought iron style that slides open.

The occupancy of the building and car park is solely for one company and is used as office / call centre. The staircase gives access from the seventh down to the lower ground level. From the offices you enter an enclosed lift lobby (no detection in lobbies currently) then enter the staircase. There are two staircases - one at either end of the building.

The staff that work the graveyard shifts have all been instructed to use the other staircase - all very well unless thats where the fire is (no detection etc in staircases, lobbies, second or first floors offices)

Thanks for yr comments as usual.

[nearlythere]

Use of building is mainly for staff with the exception of normal daily visitors (no general public access at all). seven floors. second floor in use 24/7 for emergency call centre (worldwide vehicle assistance and such like).

Chris, that was my first thought to be honest!! But have been asked to come up with another possible solution. Really not happy with the handle in a cabinet lark!! Then there's the training issue on using it etc??

Yes the staircase is required as an escape staircase. The gate is a large wrought iron style that slides open.

The occupancy of the building and car park is solely for one company and is used as office / call centre. The staircase gives access from the seventh down to the lower ground level. From the offices you enter an enclosed lift lobby (no detection in lobbies currently) then enter the staircase. There are two staircases - one at either end of the building.

The staff that work the graveyard shifts have all been instructed to use the other staircase - all very well unless thats where the fire is (no detection etc in staircases, lobbies, second or first floors offices)

Thanks for yr comments as usual.

Is the carpark exit open during normal working hours? Is the gate normally open during the daytime and closed at night and under the control of security staff? In a worst case scenario how many people would be expected to use the stairway which discharges into the carpark if it was the only one available to all occupants?

How was the escape stairway allowed to discharge into a car park in the first place?

[Mar62]

The exit is totally unmanned and operated by key fob. There is a security guard on duty in a hut on the open-air car park above during 8 - 6 except for luchtime when he becomes a receptionist for two hours??? Not sure whether he gets changed though?

The gate is closed shut at all times. Worst case scenario if the other staircase became impassable - probably upto about 150 people presently (top floor purely meeting rooms and fifth unoccupied at the moment).

I am surprised myself that this has been allowed??

ps another piece of advice please - how do you quote some text like has been done above?? Have tried the 'quote' but doesnt seem to work??

[Chris Houston]

ps another piece of advice please - how do you quote some text like has been done above?? Have tried the 'quote' but doesnt seem to work??

Just press the "quote" button and then edit the text you want to quote.  Be sure not to delete the code within the square brackets or it will mess things up

[Mar62]

Cheers Chris, thought thats what i was doing, I'll try again when necessary!

[Galeon]

If its operated by a fob on the security system , it wont be a problem , fail safe a relay off the fire alarm (not bell circuit) and link it through so this door releases. , get a manual release fitted (green) as well . The door can be programmed on the security side to show if someone leaves it open.
Update your site instructions and make sure that the signage is good to this route and you have adequate lighting / emergency lighting.

[kurnal]

I would suggest that if security is a major consideration it would be acceptable not to link the gate  to the fire alarm system and just to provide a button  or green break glass to open the gate from inside provided it will work in the event of a general or local subcircuit power failure?

This is not gospel just my opinion and would be interested in others views on this.

[nearlythere]

I would think that this arrangement needs careful consideration even re-consideration. Detection is not provided throughout as you have said earlier (no detection etc in staircases, lobbies, second or first floors offices).
This is one that your F&R Sevice would hang the company out to dry with.
Discharging from a protected stairway (I take it that is the case?) into an enclosed carpark and by so many people is a big problem. This coupled with a locked final exit gate and the lack of detection on some floors including the staircases is a recipe for disaster if override facilities are envisaged.
As an interim measure I would insist that the gate is maintained open (even if that exit point has to be manned for security purposes 24/7) at all times that anyone is on the premises. I would then have a risk assessment carried out without delay.

[Mar62]

I would think that this arrangement needs careful consideration even re-consideration. Detection is not provided throughout as you have said earlier (no detection etc in staircases, lobbies, second or first floors offices).
This is one that your F&R Sevice would hang the company out to dry with.
Discharging from a protected stairway (I take it that is the case?) into an enclosed carpark and by so many people is a big problem. This coupled with a locked final exit gate and the lack of detection on some floors including the staircases is a recipe for disaster if override facilities are envisaged.
As an interim measure I would insist that the gate is maintained open (even if that exit point has to be manned for security purposes 24/7) at all times that anyone is on the premises. I would then have a risk assessment carried out without delay.

I agree it does! I'm actually in the process of writing up the risk assessment but wanted other peoples opinions. I dont work for the company - thank god! Yes it is a protected stairway. I was stunned when i walked the course, following the fire exit signs from the final exit through the car park and bingo!! No way out!!

I'm so surprised this has never been discovered during an evacuation drill - and they do have them so their records show?

Thankyou for all yr comments gentlemen. A great help as usual.

[nearlythere]

I would think that this arrangement needs careful consideration even re-consideration. Detection is not provided throughout as you have said earlier (no detection etc in staircases, lobbies, second or first floors offices).
This is one that your F&R Sevice would hang the company out to dry with.
Discharging from a protected stairway (I take it that is the case?) into an enclosed carpark and by so many people is a big problem. This coupled with a locked final exit gate and the lack of detection on some floors including the staircases is a recipe for disaster if override facilities are envisaged.
As an interim measure I would insist that the gate is maintained open (even if that exit point has to be manned for security purposes 24/7) at all times that anyone is on the premises. I would then have a risk assessment carried out without delay.

I agree it does! I'm actually in the process of writing up the risk assessment but wanted other peoples opinions. I dont work for the company - thank god! Yes it is a protected stairway. I was stunned when i walked the course, following the fire exit signs from the final exit through the car park and bingo!! No way out!!

I'm so surprised this has never been discovered during an evacuation drill - and they do have them so their records show?

Thankyou for all yr comments gentlemen. A great help as usual.

And then I would do all that is necessary to ensure my butt is well covered right from now.

[Mar62]

And then I would do all that is necessary to ensure my butt is well covered right from now.

Thanks I'm going to!!