Fire Door Test Certification

[Tom Sutton]

Our managing agent has instructed a builder to put in fire doors but says there are no fire certificates for it. On the builders invoice he has written that they are fire doors (the managing agent has said that the builder has also verbally confirmed to them that they are BS 476 Silver foil marker is this sufficient proof that they are authentic?

I was in receipt of the above question the other day and I am fully aware of the theoretical response but I would like a practical response to the following. Assuming the fire doors are not BWF-Certifire Fire Door or the BM TRADA Q-Mark scheme what proof would you accept that unmarked fire doors meet the required standards.

[nearlythere]

Our managing agent has instructed a builder to put in fire doors but says there are no fire certificates for it. On the builders invoice he has written that they are fire doors (the managing agent has said that the builder has also verbally confirmed to them that they are BS 476 Silver foil marker is this sufficient proof that they are authentic?

I was in receipt of the above question the other day and I am fully aware of the theoretical response but I would like a practical response to the following. Assuming the fire doors are not BWF-Certifire Fire Door or the BM TRADA Q-Mark scheme what proof would you accept that unmarked fire doors meet the required standards.

I think a description of how the door is constructed might help you decide. If the door is solid 44mm ish, fits well and has all the usual trimmings it should be fine. The problem is with panel and glazed doors which may be upgraded using a recognised process. You may have to acknowledge that upgrading technology is available and acceptable but you have to satisfy yourself that it has been done correctly and by a competant person.

[JC100]

What would you class as a 'competant' person for carrying out door improvement or fitting new doors?

Would it be someone who has experience in the field? A carpenter who has been told what is required and seen the relevant BS? Has completed a course in installation? What evidence should the responsible person see before employing someone to carry out this work?

[nearlythere]

What would you class as a 'competant' person for carrying out door improvement or fitting new doors?

Would it be someone who has experience in the field? A carpenter who has been told what is required and seen the relevant BS? Has completed a course in installation? What evidence should the responsible person see before employing someone to carry out this work?

The method of upgrading a door using say the Envirograf method is well described. It can require the application of a paint or varnish and a bit of joinery to upgrade panels or both. I have advised clients of this product and it is being undertaken by a professional painter and joiner. I would probably satisfy myself that the doors appear to have been upgraded and accept a signed letter from each saying that the product or method has been applied in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.

Getting back to twsutton's point regarding uncertified firedoors I would firstly want to know why there is no certificate available. At least with the upgrading methods available one can fall back on the technical issues provided by the manufacturers.

[Big T]

I would agree that it should be concerning that newly installed doors are not available with certificates.

I would perhaps consider an approach of a visual inspection of all the doors as suggested above to satisfy yourself that the doors installed are vissually what you would expect from a fire rated product.

To many companies are letting buildiers get away with installing uncertified and inferior products.

[Davo]

If the joiner bought them he should have a delivery note

If they are silver ticket there should be one on the doors

Is the furniture of a proper standard?

The quality of the install plays a big part also


davo

[Tom Sutton]

If they are silver ticket there should be one on the doors

Please enlighten me Davo what is a silver ticket?

[kurnal]

TW your questioner needs to find out the source of the doors and satisfy himself that they really are fire doors manufactured to a design that has been tested and certified. There are some commercial joinery workshops out there selling what they say are fire doors but without any evidence to back up their clams. One I have come across told me "look its a hardwood door, all hardwood doors are fire doors". This company is based in the West Midlands and say they have been selling "Fire" doors for years  for years and  told me that nobody has ever had the audacity to question their doors before- envirnmental health, building control or fire authority.

Have you got test certificates to BS476 I asked? The MD replied "Are you mad? Do you know how much that would cost?

I would point out to the questioner his duty of due diligence and advise him to reject the doors unless bona fide certificates of test can be provided.

[Tom Sutton]

My response to her was a theoretical response which was there should be documented proof that the door meets BS 476: Part 22: 1987 or BS EN 1634-1: 2000 and copy of the test certificate or third party certification is the best proof.

Further to this I was interested what happens in practise, does building control insist on documented proof, that all newly installed fire doors meet the required standards. I can understand fire doors installed years ago are unlikely to have any proof but new installations should. I did some research and found most fire door manufacturer did not mention the standards the fire doors met, one proudly stated the doors conform to building regulations 2002 which left me a little confused, BS 476 or the Euro standard was rarely mentioned.

I would think if BCO's and quantity surveyors were pushing this aspect then more manufacturers would be highlighting this on there websites.

[jokar]

An interesting point then, if the test standard includes doors and frames as a door set, why can you buy just doors from any place?  Seemingly, numbers of enforcers and RAers attempt to get an upgrade on old part 8 doors by having S&S installed retrospectively but when this can not happen they ask for new doors.  Now what is the silver paper for, is it to state that in a particular frame the door and its associated equipment meets part 22 and 31 or does it cover the door set.  I know where I stand on this matter, but as discussed above, do others?

[wee brian]

Building control can ask for certs etc for fire doors. They won't always do this.

They only tend to do this if they are worried about them for some reason. Perhaps they are critical doors or they don't like the look of them or it's a big project and they have a bit more time to be pedantic.

[Tom Sutton]

Thanks for all the responses I think we all know the text book answer but in practise do we enforce it and in certain situations do we need to enforce it?

[jokar]

I am aware of an enforcing officer who visited a school,not a new one, asked for the door certs did not get any and issued a notice for new door sets for every doorway as it could not be proven that the door were FR.  Big solid, thick and that was just the doors.