Door Access Issue

[David Rooney]

Situation.... New Museum being built.... 6 of the exhibit rooms will have access controls keeping the doors locked due to high value "stuff".

There will be a green releases on the secure side, and the doors are to be fail secure for security reasons.

The system is planned to be L1 Single Stage. The 6 doors are not to release on fire condition, relying on the green releases if anyone is inside.


Questions...

1.  Is there any reason the doors should automatically release??


We proposed to install an override keyswitch by the fire panel to open the doors (i/o direct in line with each of the locking mechanisms) for brigade use if they want to enter the building and search the rooms.

2.   The cabling is standard rated FP200.... does anyone see a problem using the fire system in such a manner to open these doors ??


Thanks

[Galeon]

Dave ,
As peace of mind you could drop the door in open position , say if the devices within the secure activated , and keep your arrangement as such.
There are 2 issues here (imo) , the person escaping the secure area , not being trained , in a panic temp staff etc , not releasing the door , so the above might be a good compromise.

The other issue if the lads turn up and find it locked , somehow I think they would overcome this with a larger axe type tool.

[kurnal]

As the doors are fail secure then I would think enhanced cable is required. What type of lock are you using? Magnetic or  electromechanical?

Would it be safer simply not to interface the locks to the fire alarm and then to use fail insecure locks and green box, whilst monitoring the doors throught he security alarm?

Who is to use the rooms? Will these be public areas? Will there be constant supervision? Can you provide for phased evacuation within the secure suite by linking a couple of rooms together and separating with fire resisting construction?

[David Rooney]

Dave ,
As peace of mind you could drop the door in open position , say if the devices within the secure activated , and keep your arrangement as such.
There are 2 issues here (imo) , the person escaping the secure area , not being trained , in a panic temp staff etc , not releasing the door , so the above might be a good compromise.

The other issue if the lads turn up and find it locked , somehow I think they would overcome this with a larger axe type tool.

Well the doors I understand are to be pretty hefty so you may need dynamite.....!!

But actually that was another option discussed, to release if the "local" detectors activated and i think that will happen...

[David Rooney]

As the doors are fail secure then I would think enhanced cable is required. What type of lock are you using? Magnetic or  electromechanical?

Would it be safer simply not to interface the locks to the fire alarm and then to use fail insecure locks and green box, whilst monitoring the doors throught he security alarm?

Who is to use the rooms? Will these be public areas? Will there be constant supervision? Can you provide for phased evacuation within the secure suite by linking a couple of rooms together and separating with fire resisting construction?

Yep i did think enhanced might be used to allow the use of the key switch overide.....

"fail insecure"?....... are these locks with issues ??!!

Apparently the rooms will be holding pretty expensive historical artifacts.... i'ts not clear at the moment if the public will be allowed in these rooms... I think these are for storing of "stuff" prior to exhibiting ... and for overnight added security. So more than likely only staff will be allowed to enter.

Building won't be manned 24 hours but there is on site security and constant cctv surveillance in all rooms and areas.

I don't think they want phased evac but a staff alert may well be on the cards.... in which case it will definately be enhanced cabling....

The locks are likely to be battery backed mag locks.


(we got that Belvedere job by the way........!)

[afterburner]

David,
in 'places of lawful detention' we use a lot of remotley controlled electronic locks for security reasons all of which fail to secure mode. The actual control of the locks is done by remote manual activation. By Enforcement processes all the cabling to these locks is 60 minutes FR cabling. (we don't use the green boxes at all). We also have  a very secure set of by-pass keys which can open the door manually over-riding the electronic components of the lock, but those keys are very carefully controlled.
Really the question is which way the doors are meant to defend against intrusion, and which way are they intended to open on demand. In our case we defend against intrusion from both sides of the door, but in your example surely many solutions should be available from inside the strong room?
If you wish to e-mail me I will discuss security and fire egress seaparately from this public forum. (no offence meant to all our other colleagues)

[David Rooney]

David,
in 'places of lawful detention' we use a lot of remotley controlled electronic locks for security reasons all of which fail to secure mode. The actual control of the locks is done by remote manual activation. By Enforcement processes all the cabling to these locks is 60 minutes FR cabling. (we don't use the green boxes at all). We also have  a very secure set of by-pass keys which can open the door manually over-riding the electronic components of the lock, but those keys are very carefully controlled.
Really the question is which way the doors are meant to defend against intrusion, and which way are they intended to open on demand. In our case we defend against intrusion from both sides of the door, but in your example surely many solutions should be available from inside the strong room?
If you wish to e-mail me I will discuss security and fire egress seaparately from this public forum. (no offence meant to all our other colleagues)

Thanks Mr Burner... I may take you up on your offer later....

The doors are essentially to keep people out.

I think our main issue is that if there is a fire and the FB turn up and want to investigate these rooms, at the moment there is no mention of any kind of manual "key" to get in the rooms... At the moment it's all proposed to be controlled electronically which in itself is a bit worrying....!!!

Technically that part is out of our scope... I just want the FB to be able to simply open all doors via an override switch if called upon....