Fire compartments in respect of fire aalrm sounders

[Wiz]

BS 5839 part 1 2002 Clause 16.2.1 i)  includes the recommendation. At least one sounder should be provided in each fire compartment

This BS doesn't provide a definition of a 'fire compartment'

I would greatly appreciate it if anyone here could provide a defintion of a 'fire compartment' in the context of this recommendation

[Benzerari]

That's why BS5839 needs a special 'Fire Dictionary' or 'Fire Glossary'!

Fire compartment could be 'Fire Section' = fire room, fire partition...etc

other than that I don't know

[Galeon]

Therefore its your definition of a fire compartment?

[GregC]

Within a building, a space enclosed by barriers of fire-resistive construction on all sides.

Made the most sense of my goggle serching

But in this context I would assume its overwritted by the decibel level requirements.

[Wiz]

GregC, I'm not sure if your 'googled' defintion can actually be in context with the BS recommendation.

If the definition is as you suggest, then surely the BS is recommending that there should be a fire alarm sounder in every room, no matter if the the sound pressure level of the alarm warning is sufficient without it.

I can find no evidence to support your assumption of it being overrriden if the sound pressure level of the alarm warning is sufficient. On what do you base this assumption? Please dont' suggest 'commonsense' because this rarely applies in these situations

[Wiz]

That's why BS5839 needs a special 'Fire Dictionary' or 'Fire Glossary'!

Fire compartment could be 'Fire Section' = fire room, fire partition...etc

other than that I don't know

Benz, 5839-1 2002 does contain a section entitled 'terms and definitions' with 63 entries, but not an entry for 'fire compartment'

[wee brian]

Compartment and fire compartment are terms that are often misused.

Fire scienteists and modelers use it to mean "the room where the fire is". Some people use it for any room, or any room with FR construction. Others use it to describe parts of the building subdivided with "compartment walls and floors", not forgetting the term "sub-compartment" used in some PHE codes.

Its a term best avoided - a bit like - inflammable

[GregC]

Dr Wiz

Its a trick question, Ive been to Hull and back to find an answer.

A fire compartment is a part of a building that is separated from the rest of the building by a fire resistant structure so as to limit the spread of fire within the building, 30-60mins depending on who's information is to be believed.

The requirements for designing a building and hence its fire compartments, are defined in building regulations so there is no reference to it in BS5839.

BS5588 is listed as an indispencible normative reference for the understanding of BS5839, there is no need for BS5839 to repeat itself when its quite clearly listed in BS5588 and referenced from Bs5839,



Now if anyone has a copy of BS5588 they can advise us what the exact wording of a fire compartment is

[Wiz]

Well Mr GregC, I had hoped the 1-0 defeat hadn't disappointed you too much! When you are as old as me you get more used to suffering these sort of defeats!

However your rambling answer to my question has not defeated me, only bewildered me!

I accept your comment that there might be a definition of a fire compartment in BS5588.

I accept that any such definition in of a fire compartment in BS5588 might equally relate also to BS5839.

However BS5588 might recommend reference to BS5839, in which case we might, and not completely unexpectedly, disappear up our own conduit!

Does anyone out there know the BS definition of a fire compartment?

[Wiz]

Compartment and fire compartment are terms that are often misused.

Fire scienteists and modelers use it to mean "the room where the fire is". Some people use it for any room, or any room with FR construction. Others use it to describe parts of the building subdivided with "compartment walls and floors", not forgetting the term "sub-compartment" used in some PHE codes.

Its a term best avoided - a bit like - inflammable

Wee Brian, thanks for your input.

But what does BS mean by a fire compartment?

How do you think your answer relates to my original query? Do you think BS might be recommending a fire alarm warning sounder in every room since one of your definitions has a room as a fire compartment?

I would suggest that virtually no-one designs to install a sounder in every room as a matter of course (except maybe a bedroom). Tests and experience show that one door is not normally a barrier to obtaining 65db in the room from a sounder in the corridor outside the room.

[kurnal]

No it isnt that simple. Fire compartments are indeed parts of the building separated from the rest of the building  by vertical and or horizontal separation, usually provided to meet the functional requirements of the Buildign Regulations for which BS5588 is only one of a number of design approaches which may be used.  The reason for the compartmentation may be to separate different purpose groups within the building- eg flats above shops, where the profile of the risk to life  is very different between the different uses. Another reason is that to limit the potential size of a fire, buildings may be subdivided into fire compartments - eg an unsprinklered shop cannot have a compartment greater than 2000 sq m. Compartment floors may be used to protect buildings from vertical fire spread- especially high buildings. High risk areas like boiler rooms may be designated as separate compatrments. Highly vulnerable rooms like operating theatres may also be isolated fromt he rest of the building using compartmentation.

The fire resistance of elements of structure used to form compartments  can be from 30 minutes to 120 minutes under building regulations, or up to 4 hours for insurance requirements.

Now heres the rub- in some buildings, which are subdivided into fire compartments, each compartment may have its own totally independent fire alarm system and not be interconnected to the alarm in any other compartment. Most common example is flats over shops, where if there is a one hour compartment floor above the shops and independent access and egress to a one hour standard, each may have a totally independent - or indeed no fire alarm at all.

[kurnal]

Just checked BS5588 part 1- it does not have a definition of a fire compartment. The definition in approved document B is Compartment(fire)- a building or part of a building, comprising one or more rooms spaces or storeys, constructed to prevent the spread of fire to or from another part of the same building......

So the BS5839 clause Wiz quoted is by no means the whole story. The design fire stategy of the building will determine how far this clause is to be applied.

[Wiz]

Thanks Prof., I understand what you are saying, and what you say explains why, for example, a meeting room in a hotel is not necessarily a 'fire compartment' in BS terms, but I respectfully suggest that the definition you provide is still pretty hard to grasp.

Do you have any clearer definitions? For example is one floor of a building always a different 'fire compartment' from another floor?

Furthermore, from your description in the last paragraph of your answer, are you saying that it is always o.k for different areas of use/ownership in a single building to have their own independent (non-linked) fire alarm systems as long as there is 'fire compartmentation' between them, and, if so, does any such fire compartmentation have to be to a specific standard?

[Ricardo]

Does anyone out there know the BS definition of a fire compartment?

Hi Wiz
This is the BS definition of Fire Compartment ( extract BS4422 latest)
An enclosed space, which may be subdivided/separated from adjoining spaces within the building by elements
of construction having a specified fire resistance

Kurnal, I see some parts of the 5588 series do give a defintion of fire compatment and some parts don't.

[GregC]

However your rambling answer to my question has not defeated me, only bewildered me!?

You should have seen the first draft before I hit reply and not submit!

I would disagree with the comment regarding a single door not restricting sound, these new fangled addressable sounders dont travel through doors the way the dedicated sounders and bells seemed to previously.