Interaction of fire doors with sprinklers

[GB]

I am looking for published research in relation to the interaction of fire doors with sprinklers and the possible reduction of fire resistance periods. Can anyone assist?

[kurnal]

What have you in mind? Are you looking at the use of cut off sprinklers in conjuction with doors  to protect openings in compartment walls or between sprinklered and unsprinklered areas or something completeley different?

[GB]

I am looking at an internal domestic apartment doors that is fully sprinklered. I want to determine if the FD20 door is required to be fire resisting. I appreciate the guidance stating "what" should be installed, I would like to be shown solid research "why" they should be installed alongside sprinklers particularly now we have removed the requirement for internal apartment self closing devices.

[kurnal]

Have you seen the reports here:

http://www.bre.co.uk/adb/page.jsp?sid=395

[wee brian]

Just cos the closer isnt there it doesn mean that its not a fire door any more.

As for the link with sprinklers it's kind of complicated.  Assuming the sprinklers work, then probably any door will do (so long as it isnt water soluble). If the sprinklers dont work then you may want the FR. Sprinklers are pretty good on the reliability front although I expect the stats will change as more domestic systems are installed. As it is an FD20 isn't that expensive so why bother.

Most of the argumanets on this relate to not having any doors at all, that's a bit more challenging.

[jokar]

My only question would be is what happens when the sprinklers are down for maintenance or a problem ensues.  What management practices can be put into place then.  Sods law would dictate this is when a fire would occur.  Do you have complete protection at all times? or, save a few pennies by not having fire doors?

[wee brian]

That applies to most fire protection systems. If we are talking about people's homes then I dont think a safety procedure is entriely appropriate.  They are still more likely to die falling down the stairs so It's important to get things in perspective.

[Dinnertime Dave]

My only question would be is what happens when the sprinklers are down for maintenance or a problem ensues.  What management practices can be put into place then.  Sods law would dictate this is when a fire would occur.  Do you have complete protection at all times? or, save a few pennies by not having fire doors?

Domestic sprinklers require minimal maintenance, the quoted cost is around 50 pounds per unit per year. you don`t get much of a tradesman`s time for 50 pounds.

[Roy]

Maintenance of domestic sprinklers generally isn't a problem with regards to life safety. Life risk is highest when occupants are a sleep. Doing the mainentance during the day lowers the risk.

[GB]

I intend to use a self flushing domestic system which increases the reliability of the water provision e.g if there is no water in the sprinkler system, the toilets won't flush! This coupled with the point raised of maintenance completed during the day reduces the risk further of system unavailability.

It is the concept of reducing internal fire resistance of passive features within a single level domestic unit which I am trying to examine along with the reliability of internal fire doors particularly now we are not required to fit self closers?

[lambie]

If a residential care home expands in size and in line with requirements, adds a sprinkler system to the new build part of the expansion, should the sprinklers be extended into the old part too? Sorry if this is not wholly part of this thread but it looked like an opportunity to ask a not disimilar question.

[Roy]

It may be worth a look at the determination that was posted on the forum regarding the use of sprinklers in apartments in place of passive fire features.

The determination found in favour of fire doors over sprinklers as it was considered that fire doors would be shut at the time of a fire (even with out closers) and would therefore by more reliable than a sprinkler sytem.

Another report worth looking at is BRE report 204505, which concludes that domestic sprinklers would result in a 70% reduction in domestic fire deaths.

As was said in the fourm at the time, its a question of considering the reliability of people closing fire door against the reliability of a sprinkler system.

The Secretary of the State considers people closing fire doors to be more reliable.

[wee brian]

That aint what it says

[jokar]

lambie, you get nothing for the provision of sprinklers in care homes apart from more people in B1.  However, if you utilise BS 9999 you may find that you can have extended travel distances.

[kurnal]

Following on from what Wee B points out, the determination was not about fire doors and sprinklers, it was about the creation of an inner bedroom and the use of sprinklers in the access room to compensate for the inner room situation.