Author Topic: Ugrading of Fire doors, listed building  (Read 27747 times)

Offline Davash

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Ugrading of Fire doors, listed building
« on: November 07, 2008, 05:29:11 PM »
Hi,

can anyone give me some advice on upgrading original doors in a two storey plus a basement  Georgian building (listed building) used by a firm of solicitors. There is a single central staircase forming the escape route to downstairs exits with office doors  that lead onto this. The doors have been treated on the risk side using two coats of intumescent paint (30 min fire resistance). Combined intumescent & cold smoke seals are fitted in the centre of the door leaf. A single chain perco door closer (concealed) is fitted on each door. The doors themselves are heavy construction but are panelled. Here are some of the problems:

1. Some doors have a slight twist in them which prevents them coming up on the door stop in parts of the frame.

2. The gap around the door leaf in some is greater than 4mm even with intumescent seals fitted. Joiner says 4mm or less is difficult to achieve.

3. Door closers work from most angles but if door is ajar say six inches, it does not close fully.  

New type fire doors cannot be fitted as the building is listed. The building has a new fire detector and manual fire alarm installed to B.S 5839.

Has anyone had any experience of dealing with the above problems and how the Fire brigade may view the situation?

Davash

Offline nearlythere

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Ugrading of Fire doors, listed building
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2008, 07:19:08 PM »
Quote from: Davash
Hi,

can anyone give me some advice on upgrading original doors in a two storey plus a basement  Georgian building (listed building) used by a firm of solicitors. There is a single central staircase forming the escape route to downstairs exits with office doors  that lead onto this. The doors have been treated on the risk side using two coats of intumescent paint (30 min fire resistance). Combined intumescent & cold smoke seals are fitted in the centre of the door leaf. A single chain perco door closer (concealed) is fitted on each door. The doors themselves are heavy construction but are panelled. Here are some of the problems:

1. Some doors have a slight twist in them which prevents them coming up on the door stop in parts of the frame.

2. The gap around the door leaf in some is greater than 4mm even with intumescent seals fitted. Joiner says 4mm or less is difficult to achieve.

3. Door closers work from most angles but if door is ajar say six inches, it does not close fully.  

New type fire doors cannot be fitted as the building is listed. The building has a new fire detector and manual fire alarm installed to B.S 5839.

Has anyone had any experience of dealing with the above problems and how the Fire brigade may view the situation?


Davash
Hi Davash

1. Door stops are not that critical if there are intumescent strips and smoke seals fitted.

2. Problem here unless you can build up the door jam to make up for the gap thus leaving the door alone. Where are the gaps?

3. Percos are not usually accepted for fire doors. Percomatics are better.

You might find that Health & Safety matters may have an influence on the listed status. You may have to speak to Heritage on this.

You could also find that Heritage might accept replicas of existing doors in the interest of fire safety.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Davash

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Ugrading of Fire doors, listed building
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2008, 07:23:58 PM »
Hi Nearlythere,

Gap is between the door edges and door frame. Excuse my ignorance, what is a Percomatic?

Daveash

Offline nearlythere

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Ugrading of Fire doors, listed building
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2008, 07:29:33 PM »
Quote from: Davash
Hi Nearlythere,

Gap is between the door edges and door frame. Excuse my ignorance, what is a Percomatic?

Daveash
A single perko is just a simple self closer to close a simple door.
Try this for an explanation of a perkomatic (with a K it seems, I always thought it was with a C ) rather than me waffling on.

http://www.handles4doors.co.uk/Ironmongery-Door-Fittings/Concealed-Door-Closers/sc642.aspx
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline jokar

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Ugrading of Fire doors, listed building
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2008, 07:51:47 PM »
I would have thought that as the premises has early warning and is only a small building the doors are not really that much of an issue.  They will still hold back fire and smoke to a degree and people will be able to leave the building in the event an evacuation is needed.  You could change the single perko to a double perko to give more leverage to the door and if allowed build up the frame stop to cover the gaps.

Offline nearlythere

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Ugrading of Fire doors, listed building
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2008, 08:18:38 PM »
What is the maximum travel distance to the main entrance?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Davash

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Ugrading of Fire doors, listed building
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2008, 08:33:59 PM »
Thanks for that nearlythere, i've had a browse at the perkomatic.

Jokar,

I would think the same as you, but do you think that an inspecting officer might take the same view?

Offline Davash

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Ugrading of Fire doors, listed building
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2008, 08:36:54 PM »
Nearlythere,

Travel distance is within the guidelines for normal fire risk premises.

Offline nearlythere

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Ugrading of Fire doors, listed building
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2008, 06:49:00 AM »
Quote from: Davash
Nearlythere,

Travel distance is within the guidelines for normal fire risk premises.
If you have AFD, substantial doors which are properly self closing at least, and travel distance is normal for single escape you could get away with the doors as they are.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline kurnal

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Ugrading of Fire doors, listed building
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2008, 09:00:40 AM »
Solicitors offices tend to be fairly low risk premises from the point of view of the activities that go on there and the number of persons present, and the processes that are carried out.

On the other hand my experience is that solicitors offices are amongst the worst for general compliance matters- electrical and pat testing, old wiring with huge use of adaptors and extension leads and some I have worked for have had pretty poor standards of practice and awareness- cooking, portable heaters, door wedges, training, building maintenence (eg basement ceilings)  housekeeping in the basement etc. You may wisk to consider the loss  of files and business continuity.

Apart from the above, for life safety an occupied office is generally at the lower end of the scale of risk and I personally would feel easy about relaxing standards where a fire will be detected and evacuation complete in the early stages of a fire.

Where there is a risk that a fire is likely, or  may not be detected in its early stages or may develop  and grow rapidly or could affect the means of escape in a critical area (besement ceiling beneath foot of stairs? ) I would apply the guidance standards, but otherwise I would  feel easy about traditional doors of reasonable construction even without upgrade and provided they do shut I may not worry about the perkos not being fire rated. Smoke seals - if its a traditional building with fairly high ceilings and the rooms are occupied and there is full detection throughout again I would probably be ok without them.

Hope this drivel is some help.

Offline jokar

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Ugrading of Fire doors, listed building
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2008, 11:23:10 AM »
If the warning and detection gives a benefit for being in place ie a cat M system would normally suffice, then it could act as a compensatory feature for the doors particularly as they have had some upgrading and it is a listed building.  Who knows whether an IO will accept it they vary so much.  However, it is the business FRA and within that if the details are identified and the outcomes explicit then they should accept it.

messy

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Ugrading of Fire doors, listed building
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2008, 01:22:49 PM »
Quote from: kurnal
On the other hand my experience is that solicitors offices are amongst the worst for general compliance matters- electrical and pat testing, old wiring with huge use of adaptors and extension leads and some I have worked for have had pretty poor standards of practice and awareness- cooking, portable heaters, door wedges, training, building maintenence (eg basement ceilings)  housekeeping in the basement etc. You may wisk to consider the loss  of files and business continuity.
I must agree with you there Kurnal. You missed out file management from your list, which apparently isn't a problem if you have a long single staircase in which to store your paperwork! There seems to be an arrogant attitude displayed by many in the legal profession toward fire safety, despite perhaps being in the best position of knowing the potential legal pitfalls of not complying.

They are not alone. My top 3 winners of Most Arrogant Resp Person are: Doctors, Solicitors, Headmasters and Scots*

* (only joking!!!)

Offline Davash

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Ugrading of Fire doors, listed building
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2008, 04:15:47 PM »
Kurnal you are spot on with your assumptions regarding solicitor offices, most of the issues you mentioned, i have tried to address, particularly regarding the ceilings & understairs in the basement (they have now got smoke detectors in there and moved most of the paper files)

I would like to take this opportunity to thank everybody for their input. This truly is a professional forum and is invaluable as a source for good no nonsense advice.

Offline twistedfirestopper

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Ugrading of Fire doors, listed building
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2008, 11:43:53 PM »
Have a look at this companies website. Was at a brigade fire safety seminar the other day and these were one of the speakers. I was aware of their products but they have seemed to have increased their range recently. They have just brought out a hinge that doubles up as a S/C that may over come one of your problems. Obviously it's not a rising butt hinge.

http://www.envirograf.com/

Offline Davash

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Ugrading of Fire doors, listed building
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2008, 03:28:33 PM »
Twistedfirestopper,

Thanks for that info, will have a good look at their website.

Davash