Author Topic: Fire authority retrospective enforcement  (Read 15877 times)

messy

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Fire authority retrospective enforcement
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2008, 08:39:40 PM »
Quote from: kurnal
I

Now in a hotel bedroom where we were seeking to protect an ambulant person I would have no difficulty with a stand alone battery powered smoke alarm in addition to the heat detector. Does the job its intended to do and persons staying in a hotel room will complain if it starts chirping so weekly checks and battery supervision isnt a problem.

I think an appeal is essential in this case..
I agree a determination re HD in Hotel bedrooms is urgently required and I hope Sir Colin of Toddshire will be able to provide feedback in due course.

However, a grade F smoke detector in a commercial bedroom is contrary to BS5839 - part 6, which states part 6 systems are for dwellings.

Despite what the BS states, I reckon that if a building wide solution such as HD in bedrooms is introduced, backing that up by a local smoke detector must be the way forward.

A part 1 system would be best, but if that's not achievable, a part 6 hardwired system must be the minimum requirement. (and definiately not a battery only unit!!). After all, how hard would installing a Grade D system be in a hotel bedroom?

Offline kurnal

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Fire authority retrospective enforcement
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2008, 08:54:22 PM »
Yes but the BS5839 part 1 is satisfied with the heat detector in the room. I agree that part 6 systems are for domestic situations but if it helps make sopmeone a little safer in a commercial premises over and above the benchmark standards then why not? I stick with my view over grade F systems if necessary.

We are looking at a single detector protecting the occupants of a single room, who on reaching the door are in a protected route (unlike in the home), where others are not depending on the alarm from that detector because there is a fully compliant Part 1 system looking after the escape routes, where they are paying money and will call staff if the battery does start to run down, where staff enter the room every day to clean and service the room and who can be instructed to report any low battery alerts. If it does fail it will be just one room for a siingle night rather than an entire house for ever and a day.

PS the new draft guidance for small B&Bs recognises that grade F systems may be appropriate in some specific circumstances- going away from the blanket grade D recommendation.

Offline jokar

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« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2008, 09:32:11 PM »
What I find a little strannge is that FRS wnat to alleviate UwFS but ar insistent on SD in hotel or in this case student bedrooms which will give more UwFS and then to deal with that managers will have greater seek and search times.  HD was put into bedrooms as a response to the high degree of UwFS in the past.  Major point here, forget the term relevant persons but can you tell me where the dead bodies are from HD?

Offline CivvyFSO

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« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2008, 10:59:07 PM »
http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/Fire-death-was-39avoidable39.3663851.jp

A grade D part 6 won't give any UWFS as it won't be connected to a monitoring station.

Regardless, as much as we would like SD in bedrooms, our very own guidance states that BS5839 is a suitable standard, and anyone should be able to stand up in court and say "This is what FRS' own guidance says I should do, this is what I have done."

We have a duty to take heed of any guidance the secretary of state sees fit to give, and I believe our CLG guides are just that.

Midland Retty

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Fire authority retrospective enforcement
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2008, 08:15:51 AM »
Quote from: Rocha
The studios comprise of bedroom, kichen and toilet facilites in one room.
Ahhh didnt see you pst that before I made a reply

My comment about domestic smoke detectors would therefore be unsuitable in the scenario you describe.

Offline jokar

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« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2008, 08:40:37 AM »
Ciovvy, I was mentioning the retrospective fitting of SD to replace HD in a part 1 system.  And I still would like to ask where the dead bodies are from the fitting of HD instead of SD in hotel bedrooms.

And just a quick point the CLG guidance is aimed at the RP not enforcers and it is through the FRA that a decision is made about the hazrad and risk scenario.  Enforcers have no fire safety duty in the RR(FS)O at all.

Offline Rocha

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« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2008, 08:56:28 AM »
Midland Retty, why would tamper proof 10 year life battery powered smoke detectors be unsuitable in this scenario, where studios comprise of bed, cooking and toilet facilities in one room.

Offline Rocha

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« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2008, 09:00:14 AM »
My concern is if their stand alone smoke detectors are sounding every time they cook students will become blasé to fire alarms sounding regularly and when the main system sounds during a real fire event will probably not react as required and evacuate the building immediately.
The installation of smoke detectors would incur significant disruption to staff, students not to mention the financial element and it is possible that the fitting of the smoke detectors could prejudice and reduce the standard of cooperation from students during fire activations.

Midland Retty

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Fire authority retrospective enforcement
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2008, 09:27:02 AM »
Quote from: Rocha
My concern is if their stand alone smoke detectors are sounding every time they cook students will become blasé to fire alarms sounding regularly and when the main system sounds during a real fire event will probably not react as required and evacuate the building immediately.
The installation of smoke detectors would incur significant disruption to staff, students not to mention the financial element and it is possible that the fitting of the smoke detectors could prejudice and reduce the standard of cooperation from students during fire activations.
I totally agree Rocha.

Offline Rocha

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« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2008, 09:38:48 AM »
Midland Retty, why would tamper proof 10 year life battery powered smoke detectors be unsuitable in this scenario, where studios comprise of bed, cooking and toilet facilities in one room.

Offline Tom Sutton

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« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2008, 09:56:04 AM »
Quote from: jokar
And just a quick point the CLG guidance is aimed at the RP not enforcers
If not using the legislation, guidance, standards and maybe fire calcs how does an enforcer ensure the FRA is suitable and sufficient?
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline jokar

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« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2008, 10:36:08 AM »
RAers can use any guidance so posters on this forum have stated before and therefore the enforcers shpuld take cognisance of the methodology that is used in the assessmnet not just the CLG guides.  As an example, if a RAer wished to utilise BS 9999 as a methodology you could not compare it to the CLG guide as the differences are vast.  But and it is a big but, you still get a safe premises.

Midland Retty

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Fire authority retrospective enforcement
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2008, 12:23:19 PM »
Quote from: Rocha
Midland Retty, why would tamper proof 10 year life battery powered smoke detectors be unsuitable in this scenario, where studios comprise of bed, cooking and toilet facilities in one room.
Depends on size of room really but as you point out you dont want cooking fumes to setting off the single point detector repeatedly

In rooms without cooking facilities I wouldnt see nay problem with that

Offline CivvyFSO

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« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2008, 08:50:01 PM »
Quote from: jokar
Ciovvy, I was mentioning the retrospective fitting of SD to replace HD in a part 1 system.  And I still would like to ask where the dead bodies are from the fitting of HD instead of SD in hotel bedrooms.

And just a quick point the CLG guidance is aimed at the RP not enforcers and it is through the FRA that a decision is made about the hazrad and risk scenario.  Enforcers have no fire safety duty in the RR(FS)O at all.
There may not be any dead bodies yet, but shall we wait until there are before we change anything? Good old stable door legislation, our history is full of it.

Considering that many Inspectors have been told from higher up that we are to enforce the standards in the guides, then in many respects our hands are tied and we will do as we are told.

Please bear in mind that I am not talking about somewhere with a risk assessment and slightly different solution to the guides, I am talking about enforcing in somewhere that is found to be way below standard and dangerous. In that circumstance we will enforce the standards in the guide and no more, quite simply because if it goes to court the CLG guidance would be harder to challenge than someones opinion. (even though the guide advocates risk assessment)

We are still tied by the legislation to ensure that there is adequate means of escape etc, and I am quite happy to disagree with someones risk assessment and enforce what I see as a reasonable solution, but I won't do this just because it doesn't fit with the guides, it will be because in my opinion it is potentially dangerous in its present state.

Offline CivvyFSO

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« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2008, 08:51:54 PM »
Quote from: Rocha
Midland Retty, why would tamper proof 10 year life battery powered smoke detectors be unsuitable in this scenario, where studios comprise of bed, cooking and toilet facilities in one room.
Regardless of the standards of BS5839, signs and signals regs says that as it is a signal it has to have a backup power source.