Carbon monoxide - L1?

[Karissa]

Hi chaps

I have been puzzling over whether a care home provided with CO detection to the bedrooms and smoke/heat to all other areas can still be classed as having L1 coverage? I know 5839 mentions that CO detection is a rather good idea for bedrooms in such places, however I have had mixed responses as to whether the CO detection coverage can be counted as L1.

Anyone have a better clue than me 

Thanks!

K

[nearlythere]

Hi chaps

I have been puzzling over whether a care home provided with CO detection to the bedrooms and smoke/heat to all other areas can still be classed as having L1 coverage? I know 5839 mentions that CO detection is a rather good idea for bedrooms in such places, however I have had mixed responses as to whether the CO detection coverage can be counted as L1.

Anyone have a better clue than me 

Thanks!

K

Why wouldn't it be Karissa when smoke and heat detectors are also detecting a product of combustion.

[wee brian]

The technology may have changed since I last had a look at this but CO Fire Detectors were nowhere near as sensitive as smoke detectors. They were, much less prone to unwanted alarms.

I would regard them as being like a heat detector unless there was evidence to show they were as sensitive as a smoke.

[colin todd]

Heat detectors in the rooms is a form of L1. So is CO. It depends what you are trying to do. There are hotels certificated under the FP Act with CO in bedrooms. Care homes are a bit special and it depends on what you think about the risk.

[Big_Fella]

How long has the system been in as several years back a particular manufacturer was doing a heavy campaign on saying CO detectors is the way forward for bedrooms on fire systems for the fact you wouldnt be prone to false alarms.  Just curious really?

[Big_Fella]

21.1.8 (g) refers.

Brief overview:

Carbon Monoxide detectors may be used in any area where a heat detector would be acceptable (apart from hazardous areas)

note 7: The use of carbon monoxide detectors fire detectors in bedrooms will provide a higher standard of protection of sleeping occupants than heat detectors.

[nearlythere]

21.1.8 (g) refers.

Brief overview:

Carbon Monoxide detectors may be used in any area where a heat detector would be acceptable (apart from hazardous areas)

note 7: The use of carbon monoxide detectors fire detectors in bedrooms will provide a higher standard of protection of sleeping occupants than heat detectors.

Would that mean that in a kitchen enviroment, where a door hold open device is preferred, they would be a  better option than a heat detector.

[Karissa]

The system has been in about a year. I don't see why it couldn't be counted as L1 really, though other people I have asked are adamant that CO doesn't count as 'proper' detection, though they are quite 'old school'

CO detection makes sense to me in the type of fires likely to start in bedrooms, ie cigarettes...

[Big_Fella]

They detect in a slightly different way, where optical sensors activate with a scatter of light obcsuration principle, and heat sensors operate with a specific heat level, the CO detector is detecting the particles produced when incomplete combustion occurs, producing carbon monoxide.

Also there will need to be a minimum level of carbon monoxide present prior to the detector activating.

The detector is sensing fire specifics rather than smoke produced from the fire.

It's an interesting arguement as to how everyone sees these detectors, and how many are actually installed

[Big_Fella]

21.1.8 (g) refers.

Brief overview:

Carbon Monoxide detectors may be used in any area where a heat detector would be acceptable (apart from hazardous areas)

note 7: The use of carbon monoxide detectors fire detectors in bedrooms will provide a higher standard of protection of sleeping occupants than heat detectors.

Would that mean that in a kitchen enviroment, where a door hold open device is preferred, they would be a  better option than a heat detector.

Interesting point.  Would be good to see a test of say a 'chip pan' fire in a kitchen with a heat sensor and carbon monoxide sensor installed

[nearlythere]

21.1.8 (g) refers.

Brief overview:

Carbon Monoxide detectors may be used in any area where a heat detector would be acceptable (apart from hazardous areas)

note 7: The use of carbon monoxide detectors fire detectors in bedrooms will provide a higher standard of protection of sleeping occupants than heat detectors.

Would that mean that in a kitchen enviroment, where a door hold open device is preferred, they would be a  better option than a heat detector.

Interesting point.  Would be good to see a test of say a 'chip pan' fire in a kitchen with a heat sensor and carbon monoxide sensor installed

I'm looking at it from the point of view of steam and the normal cooking by-products.

[afterburner]

We have been using CO detectors in prison cells for a considerable period with very acceptable results. The original change from (a) and aspirating system to (b) optical and then to CO was entirley due to the unwanted fire signals generated by smoking within the cells. (do not think of a single occupant smoking a single cigarette). For clarity a cell can provide sleeping accommodation for 2 and provides about 14 cubic metres of volume when empty.
However, the provision of CO detectors is not our 'first port of call', but is rather a known way of reducing unwanted signals when these become excessive.

[colin todd]

Karissa, CO detectors are a recognized form of fire detection, regardless of what you might be told. It will be no surprise to you that Lothian and Borders F&RS, which is based in the centre of the known universe, namely edinburgh, was probably the first F&RS to ever accept CO detectors in bedrooms for certification of hotels under the FP ACT. This was a brave and forward thinking step, as you would expect from people with the benefit of Edinburgh education, ahead of any reference to CO fire detectors in the BS. Alas the very forward thinking SFSO now rests with his feet up in Cyprus, but he has been replaced by others with equal skill and dedication. I would watch them in kitchens though, as if the cooking equipment is a bit grotty and ventilation is poor, you can get CO produced until a woman comes to clean the kitchen. That is why the BS does not advocate their use in kitchens, though you might get away with it.

[wee brian]

CO detectors in prison cells? Will the prisoner still be alive by the time it activates?

[colin todd]

Yes, Brian, they almost certainly will. And if they aren't they shouldnt have mugged the old age pensioner in the first place.