retrospective application of standards

[Allen Higginson]

I thought this had started as a discussion on fire bells??

[Chris Houston]

I do agree but what would you use as a guaranteed emergency supply in the event of a power cut. I would imagine if the hazard has been eliminated then you would not require a sign therefore you do not need backup power.

Firstly TW I would assess if the sign was neccessary and if so if it is needed to be power. If this was so I would consider the circumstances and all back up options. As you say a standby generator could be used. I have recommended this for an outdoor concert.
It seems to be normal now for illuminated exit signs to be provided where a simple stick on sign would be adequate. I have also found it normal to see illuminated exit signs over final exit doors from buildings even when some are not required for escape purposes.
To me this is a blitz approach because installers don't know when they are not needed. IMHO

Or perhaps they wanted to do more than the legal minimum?  Perhaps we should commend those who do more than just what they have to?

[nearlythere]

I thought this had started as a discussion on fire bells??

Maybe Buzz but I was responding to a comment by Chris about safety signals requiring battery back up when this is not the case. A safety signal is not necessarily made by electrical equipment.

[nearlythere]

I do agree but what would you use as a guaranteed emergency supply in the event of a power cut. I would imagine if the hazard has been eliminated then you would not require a sign therefore you do not need backup power.

Firstly TW I would assess if the sign was neccessary and if so if it is needed to be power. If this was so I would consider the circumstances and all back up options. As you say a standby generator could be used. I have recommended this for an outdoor concert.
It seems to be normal now for illuminated exit signs to be provided where a simple stick on sign would be adequate. I have also found it normal to see illuminated exit signs over final exit doors from buildings even when some are not required for escape purposes.
To me this is a blitz approach because installers don't know when they are not needed. IMHO

Or perhaps they wanted to do more than the legal minimum?  Perhaps we should commend those who do more than just what they have to?

From my experience Chris many clients are only going by what the professional installers recommend. Many people cannot see that there is a difference between a recommendation and a requirement and assume that they both mean the same, ie. must be done.
One of my last jobs was a FRA of a small open plan building, low fire risk situation which was blitzed with manual and detection systems. I asked the client why all of this was installed and she told me that the installer recommended it. She thought this meant it was required. After advising her that none of it was necessary she was pretty peeved to say the least at the waste of money.

[Allen Higginson]

Hope she invested in a dictionary afterwards (apologies in being flippant).

[Chris Houston]

Hope she invested in a dictionary afterwards (apologies in being flippant).

Exactly.  The word "recommend" and "require" are plain English.  She has only herself to blame if she does not understand them.

If I was selling something, I would recommend that my clients buy lots of it.  If they agreed, it's hardly anyone else's fault.

[nearlythere]

Does the Fire Alarm industry play on this public ignorance as is suggested in order to fill their order books?
Some may describe them as "Suckers".  Surely nobody on this forum?

[Chris Houston]

Does the Fire Alarm industry play on this public ignorance as is suggested in order to fill their order books?

Probably!  I used to work in the industry and the lot I worked for would much prefer to sell an L1 over an L4/M.  Who wouldn't?

Do training shoe manufacturers play on public ignorance selling fancy trainers over basic ones?

[nearlythere]

Does the Fire Alarm industry play on this public ignorance as is suggested in order to fill their order books?

Probably!  I used to work in the industry and the lot I worked for would much prefer to sell an L1 over an L4/M.  Who wouldn't?

Do training shoe manufacturers play on public ignorance selling fancy trainers over basic ones?

So there we have it.

The Fire Alarm industry probably does play on this public ignorance as is suggested in order to fill their order books?

The Fire Alarm industry probably does treat them as "Suckers". 

There probably are those (more than two) from the Fire Alarm industry on this forum who probably agree that this is OK?

[Chris Houston]

I don't speak on behalf of anyone, but I am not exactly shocked that people who sell something will try their best to sell as much of it as possible.  When you think about how capitalist societies operate, this not really that controversial.  Greengrocers will try to sell as much fruit as possible, consultants will try to sell as much consultancy services as possible, surveyors will try to survey as much as possible, fire alarm companies will try to sell as many systems as they can.

Just my take on it.

[Graeme]

Does the Fire Alarm industry play on this public ignorance as is suggested in order to fill their order books?

Probably!  I used to work in the industry and the lot I worked for would much prefer to sell an L1 over an L4/M.  Who wouldn't?

the installer

[Galeon]

How do you expect the equipment manufacturer's feed their starving children without us boys , you will have to excuse me , I have left the Ferrari running and I am concerned I might damage the ozone layer, its o.k my butler going to park it for me.

[GregC]

Short term customers get fleeced once.

Long term customers are kept by offering pratical solutions, its up to the installer to make his profit out of screwing suppliers, look how many of them drive flash cars!

Personally I look at the customer and decide what they are willing/able to spend and quote accordingly, a charity is hardly likely to have the cash for a full upgrade but up in the big city they like to spend their cash on systems to make the tenants more likely to stay, it only takes half a dozen false alarms in the winter with several hundred employees outside for the tenant to start looking elsewhere.

Back to the original topic  , you can but advise them and quote to the standards, I am pretty sure care homes have to fill out H&S reports for their license on an annual basis, if they choose to ignore the fact their system is non compliant and predates 6 years of standards requirements they are not going to win any court battles, it may take a bit of effort to make them see sense but they will appreciate you in the long term.

[Allen Higginson]

I don't speak on behalf of anyone, but I am not exactly shocked that people who sell something will try their best to sell as much of it as possible.  When you think about how capitalist societies operate, this not really that controversial.  Greengrocers will try to sell as much fruit as possible, consultants will try to sell as much consultancy services as possible, surveyors will try to survey as much as possible, fire alarm companies will try to sell as many systems as they can.

Just my take on it.

Those who work in the fire alarm industry are not members of the emergency services (contrary what some think!) but in effect members of the "trade".Amongst all trades there are cowboys who will fit or supply more than what you actually need - it's a simple fact of business life.
If I'm asked to design a system without being given what category they want I will generally give them three options - all singing and dancing down to minimum then it's up to them what they go for.

[Wiz]

............ its up to the installer to make his profit out of screwing suppliers, look how many of them drive flash cars! .............

Don't I know it !!!!!!