BS5839-1 and 6 Competent person.

[Benzerari]

Another issue to be raised up, is not only the young unqualified installer to blame, they didn’t come in on their own, it’s rather the management it self to blame, very few alarm installer companies use what's known by project management software like Microsoft project management 2003 or alternatively..., I have seen so many companies dealing with even large project of installations, where many technicians involved and left to their own, having tasks not well monitored, the whole projects having no dead line or a limit of hand over..., they only start to panic when the customer start to rush them..., they call for electricians some times to cover the lack of fire alarm installers, with no prior training, probably it’s the market to blame, as what’s available as fire alarm engineers doesn’t cover the high demand…

[kurnal]

I dont like the idea of using the BS system as the vehicle for a whole raft of new rules that the cowboys will ignore. If the enforcers- building control and fire service were better trained to recognise poor practice and actually acted on it when it arose then things would improve.

How big is the problem? Are people dying or getting injured as a result of poor installation practices that we all see every day of our working lives? Is there political will for yet another expensive scheme?  Will a piece of paper stop the "competent" cowboy cutting corners because he knows he can get away with it? If theres money to be saved corners will always be cut. Period. And some sectors of the industry and community seem to cut corners as part of their in built culture. 

Alarm systems are nothing compared to the problems of poor installations that I am seeing arising from BS9251 sprinkler systems. I am currently battling for one unfiortunate client trying to obtain redress where the fire service and building inspector have signed off a residential sprinkler system for a care home in which the installer has been brazen enough to only claim 120L/Min flow available on the residential system commissioning cert without comment or variation and the the thing has passed all approvals without comment. Now the installer is saying up yours to the client.

Fire doors  and doorsets are another minefield. Where does it end?

[Benzerari]

 Where does it end?

It seems most of us complaining about similar issues, I would like to support one of Tomy's Statements, when saying:

'We all should do more to force the governing bodies to get behind getting proper training for fire alarm engineers.'

Now the stage reached into:

How?   

[Allen Higginson]

Like you Greame, I spend thousands on alarm training and it really ******* me off when a sparky installs a fire alarm badly.

I am a member of the British Fire Consortium (BFC) and this is an area where they in the past pushed for this clause in fire extinguisher british standards and got there in the end.
I can not see why this can not be brought in to the BS5839.

There has recently been a big who-are with a particular training company when the BFC said they wouldno longer reconise his training courses of engineers. He threatend suing the BFC etc but, in the end he had to back down because he was not on the list in BS5306.

If it was copper bottom I would back this 110%,however when a member of the body that you are a member of promotes training yet didn't know that a fused spur was no longer acceptable then it discredits each bodies "qualifications".

[David Rooney]

i 100% agree with you but i have already shelled out nearly £1000 on myself on courses 1-6 on part 1 and more on another 3 engineers. Has it made any difference?

No- the other companies in the area who claim to be fire experts have not bothered and still carry on as normal. No one asks for proof of competance,i wish they did as then all the money i have spent would finally start to benefit the company.

Sparks are my biggest gripe.   We cannot wire in a fused spur now without having to be a member of some trade body but they happily carry on installing fire systems(badly) and never produce any documentation at the end.

Do not do enough part 6 systems to justify more money on courses but honsestly what is the point as sparkies have that area cornered as well.

I stll also see designs from consulatants from the dark ages...the norm   to be installed to 5839-1 1988 and all in 2.5mm MICC cable etc etc.

The intruder industry got it's act together years ago and sparkies rarley fit them unless they are audible only. The fire is more crictical in my opinion so why is it still behind?

Absolutely agree.

Trouble is the BS is written as if the client knows all about it, however, they don't know what certification to expect so never quibble when they are handed the back of a cornflake packet.

And sparks (generally) get away with it.....

[Wiz]

I agree that it would be a good idea to have a 'register' of persons who have proven their competence.

The issue I have is where the organisation providing training to prove 'competence' also set the syllabus and any test to demonstrate competence. I can never accept that such an organisation is not just 'passing' most people because they have paid for the 'training' (no matter how poor that might be)

A syllabus of what is required to prove skills, knowledge and experience along with any tests for such, should be determined by a completely independent organisation (which does not offer training courses). These tests should be open to anyone who is prepared to sit them (at a reasonable cost!) i.e something like City & Guilds examinations.

Other organisations would then be free to provide training courses to teach the skills and knowledge to those that require it to try and pass the test, instead of giving a 'pass' to anyone who can remember 80% of what they were told a few minutes previously, and just because they have paid hundreds of pounds to that organisation.

[Benzerari]

Another issue to be raised up, is not only the young unqualified installer to blame, they didn’t come in on their own, it’s rather the management it self to blame, very few alarm installer companies use what's known by project management software like Microsoft project management 2003 or alternatively..., I have seen so many companies dealing with even large project of installations, where many technicians involved and left to their own, having tasks not well monitored, the whole projects having no dead line or a limit of hand over..., they only start to panic when the customer start to rush them..., they call for electricians some times to cover the lack of fire alarm installers, with no prior training, probably it’s the market to blame, as what’s available as fire alarm engineers doesn’t cover the high demand…

I would like to add to the above some bits..., alarm companies bosses are to blame too, I have known some one who used to be fire extinguisher engineer but 20 years ago or so, he setup his company dealing with fire alarm systems, but neither him nor his 28 years old girl friend, promoted as operation manager, know the difference between addressable and conventional...etc, probably the only certificate he has is, his birth certificate, he got registrations with professional bodies because he paid the fees, but just to receives magazines, which he never ever read them..., I am talking about some one I knew, but I haven't got any personal problem with him, just giving an example, as we don’t work together either.

None of the engineers who worked for him resisted more than 2 years, he either suck them out, or they just resign..., probably it's the new fashion of thought  'money is in fire', is to blame…

Some one once said: 'if the top head is bending what do you expect the bottom to be?'  Unqualified boys didn't come in, on their own though!

[Thomas Brookes]

Buzzard905

If it was copper bottom I would back this 110%,however when a member of the body that you are a member of promotes training yet didn't know that a fused spur was no longer acceptable then it discredits each bodies "qualifications".

Not sure what you mean here please explain?

As far as i am aware still in the standards is 25.2 c) To facilitate local isolation during maintenance, suitable means should be provided for double pole isolation of the low voltage supply circuit that serves the power supply and control equipment.
Note 4 says that a special tool may be required to stop unauthorised access.

We tend to use a double pole Mk box with a fishtail key and a screwed in fuse (all needing a special key).

[Allen Higginson]

Buzzard905

If it was copper bottom I would back this 110%,however when a member of the body that you are a member of promotes training yet didn't know that a fused spur was no longer acceptable then it discredits each bodies "qualifications".

Not sure what you mean here please explain?

As far as i am aware still in the standards is 25.2 c) To facilitate local isolation during maintenance, suitable means should be provided for double pole isolation of the low voltage supply circuit that serves the power supply and control equipment.
Note 4 says that a special tool may be required to stop unauthorised access.

We tend to use a double pole Mk box with a fishtail key and a screwed in fuse (all needing a special key).

I shouldn't really post when it's bedtime!I know of a member of the BFC who was still using a standard unswitched spur unit up to 4 or 5 months ago and was quite surprised to know that this was not what 5839 says you use.He then had to back track all his installs that were signed off on post 2002.From that point I thought it rich that they were advocating training on standards that they didn't follow as an installer.
I use the same MK ones as you by the way

[Thomas Brookes]

Unfortunately, theres good and bad in what ever organisation you are in, up till recently the BFC had very poor fire alarm training and the BFC emphasiss was fire extinguishers, how ever it is changing and the training is now done by Trevor Boxer who is fairly good (he sits on the BS tech committee for BS5839).
Im also in the ECA and I could tell you a massive horror story about one of their members.

This company turns over £1m to £ 2m a year and I had to do a full report on how bad there fire alarm work was, the list was massive including sounders in the same office set on different tunes, not enough sound level, no certificates or plans etc etc.

And to top it off at the end when they had agreed to put it right he asked if I would let him use my copy of BS5839-1 as they did not have one!!

[Graeme]

Like you Greame, I spend thousands on alarm training and it really ******* me off when a sparky installs a fire alarm badly.

I am a member of the British Fire Consortium (BFC) and this is an area where they in the past pushed for this clause in fire extinguisher british standards and got there in the end.
I can not see why this can not be brought in to the BS5839.

There has recently been a big who-are with a particular training company when the BFC said they wouldno longer reconise his training courses of engineers. He threatend suing the BFC etc but, in the end he had to back down because he was not on the list in BS5306.

If it was copper bottom I would back this 110%,however when a member of the body that you are a member of promotes training yet didn't know that a fused spur was no longer acceptable then it discredits each bodies "qualifications".

the same one that thought ALL fire systems have to have 72 hours battery back up?

[jim]

IMO there has been an awful lot of sensible comments made and a similar amount of rubbish spoken here.
As the owner of a BAFE accredited company with 22 years trading, I think we are competent persons , all engineers having many years vocational training. Unfortunately in this age of box ticking, years of experience is not proof of competence and is not an acceptable means of measure or judgement of ability for others to assess competence by. The only practical method is that of third party accreditation.
Unfortunately, we who are conscientious and competent and have the prescribed third party accreditation to prove it, are only proving our abilities to other FA companies i.e. those parties who are aware of the schemes.  Until the RRO fire safety order is amended to include the statement that design, installation, commissioning and maintenance of FA systems can only be carried out by TPA companies in the way the gas industry with CORGI does, then we are piddling in the wind.
Who other than a bona-fide FA company even knows about BAFE? BAFE muste wake up and spend some of its fee income on propmoting  itself and TPA in general.
Finally an off topic comment, I look at this forum quite often and occasionally subscribe but I am amazed at some of the questions asked particularly by senior members, their ignorance and naivety is unbelievable. If this is an indication of the industries level of competency, then the sooner the suggestions in my bleatings are implemented the better.
?? New Topic ??  how about a boycott of the BSI until their pricing and charging policy is reviewed.

[Galeon]

From 1st April 2009 the operation of the HSE register of gas installers that covers England, Wales and Scotland will pass to Capita, after nearly 20 years of operation with CORGI. At the time of writing it is not too clear how this transition will work - it is likely that around 250 or so staff at CORGI who are directly involved with the Gas installer registration scheme would be transferred to the new body, to ensure continuity of operations.

CORGI Services, CORGI's commercial arm will still continue to operate and offer such services as:

Competent Person Schemes for electrical, plumbing and ventilation
CORGIdirect
Gas Installer magazine
Insurances
Consultancy and incident investigation
The profit made from CORGI Services Ltd will be gift aided to the CORGI Trust to continue its work with Gas Safety.


One of Capita's main challenges will be in creating a new 'Gas Safety' brand for the trade and public from April 2009. Currently CORGI has over 93% public awareness across the UK

So it seems all schemes have bad hair days !

[Allen Higginson]

Finally an off topic comment, I look at this forum quite often and occasionally subscribe but I am amazed at some of the questions asked particularly by senior members, their ignorance and naivety is unbelievable. If this is an indication of the industries level of competency, then the sooner the suggestions in my bleatings are implemented the better.

What you have to bear in mind Jim is this is not exclusively an engineers forum and is made up others involved in various aspects of fire safety and prevention,as well as those who put them out!

[Wiz]

Jim, in support of Buzz's comments; as an engineer I have gained much knowledge from this Forum on subjects that a fire alarm engineer would otherwise know very little about. In return, I will answer a question on anything I know something about, no matter how 'basic' that question might seem to me. That, for me, is why Firenet is so good for us all.