Removal of external fire escape, yes another one

[John]

This seems to be a recurring topic, which I find very strange, but here goes with this version.

I am involved with a building where the landlord's agent is determined to remove the external steel fire escape, partially due to cost, and partially due to a possible, but as yet unsubstantiated, right of way problem for potential users of the external fire escape.

The building - 7 floors, incorporating basement, ground floor and floors 1 to 5 above ground, main entrance/exit on ground floor as you would expect, and fire exit in basement (which will be the subject of my next post shortly), non protected open central staircase, lift in operation on all floors, which will therefore allow access to persons with physical disabilities.  Footprint of building approx 250 square metres per floor.  L1 alarm system with plenty of sounders and beacons on all floors, however a maintenance contract on it wouldn't be a bad idea  .  Occupancy of the building is mainly offices, there is a small gymnasium in the basement.  The fifth floor is often rented out to persons who would not normally resort to the building.  There could be up to 80 people in the building, and times of occupancy can be 24/7.

I appreciate that early detection is seen as the key, and an audible and visual warning will be given, but that doesnt exactly assist the occupants with egress.

My questions are as follows: -

If the external fire escape is removed, and a fire occurs, for example in an office close to the main entrance/exit on the ground floor, therefore the stairway is filling with smoke, how do the occupants get out? 

IS the removal of an external fire escape likely to be sanctioned by FRS and building control ?

J

[Izan FSO]

In My area we have a 9 story office block with three wings on each story occupancy well in excess of your 80 and served by a single staircase.

The escape strategy is based around the staircase being pressureised on activation of the fire alarm and protected by lobbies at all levels and AFD to L1

[John]

Thank you for your reply Izan, however, the staircase is NOT protected.

J

[kurnal]

A single staircase will require a high standard of protection. In fact its very surprising to hear it does not already have it, even with an external.

Is there a not a risk that a fire on the lower floors will cut off both staircases at the same time?

Detection cannot compensate for a lack of protection to the escape route in a multi storey building. Even with a low fire loading and growth rate the effects of the fire are likely to cut off the means of escape more rapidly than persons will reach the final exit- even if they respond immediately. Think about how long is required to escape safely- time to detect a fire, time to respond to the alarm, time to travel to the staircase and tme to travel down the staircase. And what about non ambulant persons who may have gone up in the lift?

[afterburner]

Kurnals answer really captures the concerns.

If I am understanding this correctly, the proposal is to remove the external MoE and leave a single unprotected staircase serving seven floors?

worth restating, an advanced detection system still only informs the occupants of the building they have a problem. It cannot provide adequate MoE on it's own.

It's not really down to the local Fire & Rescue to approve, it's down to Management carrying out a competent fire risk assessment. This gets us to a familiar thread topic, 'would any competent fire risk assessor accept a single unprotected staircase serving seven floors?'

[nearlythere]

Totally amazed that a 7 storey building with a non protected stairway got past anybody.
Must be Mafia HQ or former crown.

[CivvyFSO]

To put a not too finer point on this; If I found on inspection a 7 storey building with an unprotected single stair I would be immediately looking at prohibition/restriction, and also I would be starting the trail of evidence to support a prosecution. (Depending on whether relevant persons were put at risk of course.)

To be quite honest, as soon as you are looking at a third storey, the lack of protection to the stair would potentially be raising questions regarding restriction/prohibition etc. The AFD system installed (Coupled with good procedures assisting pre-movement time) may just about make up for this if it was only 3 storey.

[AnthonyB]

I'm suprised that it is an unprotected stair even under older legislation - the external stair will no doubt have been added due to the OSRP or FPA certification system and at the same time the main stair should have been 30 minutes, particularly as in those days the fire alarm would most likely have been call points and bells only.

Before even considering the external stair I would be focusing on the fact that the main stair has escaped the need for protection.

(I'm assuming by unprotected that the doors to the stair are not self closing, the doorsets do not meet FD30 and that there may also be questions about the structural protection to the stairs (walls, etc).

In theory, dependant on occupancy, distances, etc, under the current regime you could possibly (not definitely) find an engineered solution to allow a single stair, but to achieve this you need to start with a basic protected stair and then add on top (lobbies, smoke control, etc) and you haven't even got that!

Sounds like it needs an enforcement visit!

[Fishy]

This seems to be a recurring topic, which I find very strange, but here goes with this version.

I am involved with a building where the landlord's agent is determined to remove the external steel fire escape, partially due to cost, and partially due to a possible, but as yet unsubstantiated, right of way problem for potential users of the external fire escape.

The building - 7 floors, incorporating basement, ground floor and floors 1 to 5 above ground, main entrance/exit on ground floor as you would expect, and fire exit in basement (which will be the subject of my next post shortly), non protected open central staircase, lift in operation on all floors, which will therefore allow access to persons with physical disabilities.  Footprint of building approx 250 square metres per floor.  L1 alarm system with plenty of sounders and beacons on all floors, however a maintenance contract on it wouldn't be a bad idea  .  Occupancy of the building is mainly offices, there is a small gymnasium in the basement.  The fifth floor is often rented out to persons who would not normally resort to the building.  There could be up to 80 people in the building, and times of occupancy can be 24/7.

I appreciate that early detection is seen as the key, and an audible and visual warning will be given, but that doesnt exactly assist the occupants with egress.

My questions are as follows: -

If the external fire escape is removed, and a fire occurs, for example in an office close to the main entrance/exit on the ground floor, therefore the stairway is filling with smoke, how do the occupants get out? 

IS the removal of an external fire escape likely to be sanctioned by FRS and building control ?

J

Never mind whether it's "likely to be sanctioned by FRS and building control" - it's just plain unsafe!!!

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

Perhaps you may suggest to the landlords agent the implications of removing the external escape and ask how the fire risk assessment will support this. The Fire & Rescue Service would not sanction the propsal ....... it is up to the responsible person to meet the requirements of the order.

Article 22 of the Order springs to mind ...... duty to co-operate and co-ordinate in respect of the access arrangements ...... unless there is documented evidence that proves that there are no access rights.

Even with an L1 system providing early detection / warning, assuming that the alarm is functioning of course does not protect the occupants exiting form the upper floors.

Whatever he proposed solution, sounds expensive!!