Author Topic: Fire doors in HMO's  (Read 23836 times)

Offline Allen Higginson

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Fire doors in HMO's
« on: January 22, 2009, 03:04:49 PM »
Just a quickie - all doors in an HMO must be fire doors,and doors on escape routes must not have key locks:happy enough with that.
But if you are in shared accomodation is it correct that you cannot have a lock on your own bedroom door as this forms part of the fire escape route?

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Fire doors in HMO's
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2009, 03:21:07 PM »
Just a quickie - all doors in an HMO must be fire doors,and doors on escape routes must not have key locks:happy enough with that.
But if you are in shared accomodation is it correct that you cannot have a lock on your own bedroom door as this forms part of the fire escape route?
What type of lock and to lock which way Buzz?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Allen Higginson

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Re: Fire doors in HMO's
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2009, 03:47:07 PM »
Just a quickie - all doors in an HMO must be fire doors,and doors on escape routes must not have key locks:happy enough with that.
But if you are in shared accomodation is it correct that you cannot have a lock on your own bedroom door as this forms part of the fire escape route?
What type of lock and to lock which way Buzz?
A lock on your door to stop unsavouries getting in to nick your pot noodles (this is student accomodation after all).

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Fire doors in HMO's
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2009, 03:52:00 PM »
Just a quickie - all doors in an HMO must be fire doors,and doors on escape routes must not have key locks:happy enough with that.
But if you are in shared accomodation is it correct that you cannot have a lock on your own bedroom door as this forms part of the fire escape route?
What type of lock and to lock which way Buzz?
A lock on your door to stop unsavouries getting in to nick your pot noodles (this is student accomodation after all).
Provided your room is not an escape route for others it is OK to lock your door to keep your room secure. It is recommended that the door does not need the use of a removable key to get out. Something like a hotel room arrangement incorporating a thumb turn or lever is what is suggested.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 03:56:35 PM by nearlythere »
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Allen Higginson

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Re: Fire doors in HMO's
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2009, 04:10:13 PM »
Just a quickie - all doors in an HMO must be fire doors,and doors on escape routes must not have key locks:happy enough with that.
But if you are in shared accomodation is it correct that you cannot have a lock on your own bedroom door as this forms part of the fire escape route?
What type of lock and to lock which way Buzz?
A lock on your door to stop unsavouries getting in to nick your pot noodles (this is student accomodation after all).
Provided your room is not an escape route for others it is OK to lock your door to keep your room secure. It is recommended that the door does not need the use of a removable key to get out. Something like a hotel room arrangement incorporating a thumb turn or lever is what is suggested.
If you don't mind me asking - where does your (acceptible by the way IMO!) solution come from?

Offline johnny99

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Re: Fire doors in HMO's
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2009, 05:34:49 PM »
Just a quickie - all doors in an HMO must be fire doors,and doors on escape routes must not have key locks:happy enough with that.
But if you are in shared accomodation is it correct that you cannot have a lock on your own bedroom door as this forms part of the fire escape route?

Not necessarily so.  Whether or not fire doors are required depends on a number of things.  The number of storeys would have an impact, and the way the property is occupied would also have an effect.  It is perfectly possible to have sound, close-fitting doors of conventional construction if the property is no more than three storeys in height and the property is occupied as a shared house.  (See the LACORs guide. http://www.lacors.gov.uk/LACORS/upload/19175.pdf )  Locks on bedroom doors would tend to indicate that the property is not really occupied as a shared house and in that case the safety standards would generally be more onerous as shared houses are seen as the lowest risk category of HMOs.

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Fire doors in HMO's
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2009, 05:38:10 PM »
Just a quickie - all doors in an HMO must be fire doors,and doors on escape routes must not have key locks:happy enough with that.
But if you are in shared accomodation is it correct that you cannot have a lock on your own bedroom door as this forms part of the fire escape route?
What type of lock and to lock which way Buzz?
A lock on your door to stop unsavouries getting in to nick your pot noodles (this is student accomodation after all).
Provided your room is not an escape route for others it is OK to lock your door to keep your room secure. It is recommended that the door does not need the use of a removable key to get out. Something like a hotel room arrangement incorporating a thumb turn or lever is what is suggested.
If you don't mind me asking - where does your (acceptible by the way IMO!) solution come from?
Lacors & BS9999, being just two. You will normally find it in most if not all guidance.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Rex

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Re: Fire doors in HMO's
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2009, 09:38:51 PM »
Just a quickie - all doors in an HMO must be fire doors,and doors on escape routes must not have key locks:happy enough with that.
But if you are in shared accomodation is it correct that you cannot have a lock on your own bedroom door as this forms part of the fire escape route?

Not necessarily so.  Whether or not fire doors are required depends on a number of things.  The number of storeys would have an impact, and the way the property is occupied would also have an effect.  It is perfectly possible to have sound, close-fitting doors of conventional construction if the property is no more than three storeys in height and the property is occupied as a shared house.  (See the LACORs guide. http://www.lacors.gov.uk/LACORS/upload/19175.pdf )  Locks on bedroom doors would tend to indicate that the property is not really occupied as a shared house and in that case the safety standards would generally be more onerous as shared houses are seen as the lowest risk category of HMOs.

If three storeys in height fire doors are required in a shared house.

Offline johnny99

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Re: Fire doors in HMO's
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2009, 03:14:21 PM »

If three storeys in height fire doors are required in a shared house.

Sorry Rex, I beg to differ.  Please refer to the LACORs guide and in particular case study D5 (Page 42).  Note 8 says about three storey shared houses:

However, in existing three-storey shared houses of low risk it may be possible to accept existing walls and partitions if 20-minutes fire resistance can be achieved. This is likely to be met if walls and partitions are of sound, conventional construction.  Sound lath and plaster construction should meet this requirement. Doors onto the escape route may be acceptable if they are of sound, solid construction, are close fitting and self-closing.


I read that to say that three storey shared houses do not require fire doors.  It's all based on risk.

Offline Rex

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Re: Fire doors in HMO's
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2009, 11:24:43 AM »
Johnny 99
I believe the LACORS Guide was formerly launched London on the 23rd July 2008, prior to that guide being issued the bench mark standard for a three storey HMO’s by virtually all LHA was the requirement for 30minute fire resistance to all doors walls, and ceilings, with a higher standard of 60 mins for basement situations.
I have never seen an LHA Guide other than LACORS that would accept 20mins fire resistance to doors walls and ceilings in a HMO of three storeys.
However, in the light of this further guidance I sincerely hope that local Councils will not change their bench mark standards to accept 20 mins fire resistance in a three storey HMO.
In a survey carried out by ENTEC plc on behalf of the Government and looking at national fire stats  it is an accepted fact in the UK that if you live in an HMO you are 6 times more likely to die from fire than adults in an ordinary house. Thus the requirement to license HMO’s of three storeys with 5 or more occupants.
Page 42, Note 8 of the LACORS Guide also states that “the ideal situation is for escape routes to be enclosed in 30 minutes fire resisting construction and FD 30 fire doors.”  I would rather accept the “ideal situation” than 20 minutes fire resistance.
Due to the credit crunch and people losing their homes, sadly more people could be housed in an HMO. I could go on about the nature of the vulnerable occupants, but will stop here; I hope this posting makes some sense.

Offline kurnal

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Re: Fire doors in HMO's
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2009, 03:01:35 PM »
I think you are right in most respects Rex but the language was probably worded deliberately as many existing HMOs do have lath and plaster partitions. Would it be reasonable to expect them to be removed in an existing building in current use?

Offline Allen Higginson

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Re: Fire doors in HMO's
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2009, 05:59:22 PM »
Ive got my answers so if anyone wants to lock the topic feel free.

Offline johnny99

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Re: Fire doors in HMO's
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2009, 07:06:53 PM »
Johnny 99
I believe the LACORS Guide was formerly launched London on the 23rd July 2008, prior to that guide being issued the bench mark standard for a three storey HMO’s by virtually all LHA was the requirement for 30minute fire resistance to all doors walls, and ceilings, with a higher standard of 60 mins for basement situations.
I have never seen an LHA Guide other than LACORS that would accept 20mins fire resistance to doors walls and ceilings in a HMO of three storeys.
However, in the light of this further guidance I sincerely hope that local Councils will not change their bench mark standards to accept 20 mins fire resistance in a three storey HMO.
In a survey carried out by ENTEC plc on behalf of the Government and looking at national fire stats  it is an accepted fact in the UK that if you live in an HMO you are 6 times more likely to die from fire than adults in an ordinary house. Thus the requirement to license HMO’s of three storeys with 5 or more occupants.
Page 42, Note 8 of the LACORS Guide also states that “the ideal situation is for escape routes to be enclosed in 30 minutes fire resisting construction and FD 30 fire doors.”  I would rather accept the “ideal situation” than 20 minutes fire resistance.
Due to the credit crunch and people losing their homes, sadly more people could be housed in an HMO. I could go on about the nature of the vulnerable occupants, but will stop here; I hope this posting makes some sense.


Rex,

I hear what you're saying, but again, I beg to differ.  If you read the Entec report in detail, it actually identifies that the risk in shared houses is in no way comparable with the level of risk in other types of HMO, particularly bedsits, unless there are a large number of occupants or the occupants are particularly vulnerable.

E.G. It states in paragraph E19:

However, the findings of this study indicate that additional and/or alternative precautions are needed to reduce the relatively very high risk in bedsits, higher risk shared houses and higher risk households with lodgers, and those hostels and purpose built HMOs which lack self-contained accommodation. Particular attention should be awarded all 3 storey bedsits and those 3 storey shared houses with either larger numbers of occupants or with vulnerable occupants.


It also states in paragraph E 25:

Inversely, where a HMO has a low risk occupancy and few occupants, additional fire precautions may not be required, including lower risk 3 storey shared houses. Thus, the standards for 3 storey shared houses should be linked to the number and type of occupants and existence of any other special risk factors, in the same way that the qualifying criteria for registration should be linked to the number of storeys and the number and type of occupants.


Paragraph 2.1.4 indicates that shared houses have the lowest fatality rates by type of HMO.

Paragraph 2.1.5 indicates that shared houses have the lowest fatality rates per building.

Paragraph 2.1.10 indicates that the fatality rates in shared houses and households with lodgers are very close to those in
single occupancy houses.

I will concede that it states that the fatality rates in shared houses of three storeys are 50% higher than those in shared houses of one or two storeys, but could that simply be because those properties have 50% more floors and maybe 50% more occupiers in each property?

The Entec report contains some good stuff, but you do need to read the detail, not just the headlines.  If you want another LHA guide that supports the provision of sound traditional construction in three storey shared houses, have a look at the DASH guide.  (Decent and Safe Homes East Midlands).  I believe that that covers about 40 local authority areas.

In addition, the LACORs guide is not just another LHA guide, it is co-published by LACORs, the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health, the Chief Fire Officers Association and is forwarded by two ministers from the Department for Communities and Local Government.  The list of contributors and consultees is long indeed.

Regards



« Last Edit: January 26, 2009, 07:59:33 PM by johnny99 »

Offline johnny99

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Re: Fire doors in HMO's
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2009, 10:22:37 PM »
Does nobody have any more opinions on this?

Please tell me I'm right or why I'm wrong?

However, having looked at this post http://forum.fire.org.uk/index.php?topic=3971.0 I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the love child of a certain Mr. Todd!!!


Offline nearlythere

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Re: Fire doors in HMO's
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2009, 07:59:17 AM »
Johnny 99
I believe the LACORS Guide was formerly launched London on the 23rd July 2008, prior to that guide being issued the bench mark standard for a three storey HMO’s by virtually all LHA was the requirement for 30minute fire resistance to all doors walls, and ceilings, with a higher standard of 60 mins for basement situations.
I have never seen an LHA Guide other than LACORS that would accept 20mins fire resistance to doors walls and ceilings in a HMO of three storeys.
However, in the light of this further guidance I sincerely hope that local Councils will not change their bench mark standards to accept 20 mins fire resistance in a three storey HMO.
In a survey carried out by ENTEC plc on behalf of the Government and looking at national fire stats  it is an accepted fact in the UK that if you live in an HMO you are 6 times more likely to die from fire than adults in an ordinary house. Thus the requirement to license HMO’s of three storeys with 5 or more occupants.
Page 42, Note 8 of the LACORS Guide also states that “the ideal situation is for escape routes to be enclosed in 30 minutes fire resisting construction and FD 30 fire doors.”  I would rather accept the “ideal situation” than 20 minutes fire resistance.
Due to the credit crunch and people losing their homes, sadly more people could be housed in an HMO. I could go on about the nature of the vulnerable occupants, but will stop here; I hope this posting makes some sense.


Rex,

I hear what you're saying, but again, I beg to differ.  If you read the Entec report in detail, it actually identifies that the risk in shared houses is in no way comparable with the level of risk in other types of HMO, particularly bedsits, unless there are a large number of occupants or the occupants are particularly vulnerable.

E.G. It states in paragraph E19:

However, the findings of this study indicate that additional and/or alternative precautions are needed to reduce the relatively very high risk in bedsits, higher risk shared houses and higher risk households with lodgers, and those hostels and purpose built HMOs which lack self-contained accommodation. Particular attention should be awarded all 3 storey bedsits and those 3 storey shared houses with either larger numbers of occupants or with vulnerable occupants.


It also states in paragraph E 25:

Inversely, where a HMO has a low risk occupancy and few occupants, additional fire precautions may not be required, including lower risk 3 storey shared houses. Thus, the standards for 3 storey shared houses should be linked to the number and type of occupants and existence of any other special risk factors, in the same way that the qualifying criteria for registration should be linked to the number of storeys and the number and type of occupants.


Paragraph 2.1.4 indicates that shared houses have the lowest fatality rates by type of HMO.

Paragraph 2.1.5 indicates that shared houses have the lowest fatality rates per building.

Paragraph 2.1.10 indicates that the fatality rates in shared houses and households with lodgers are very close to those in
single occupancy houses.

I will concede that it states that the fatality rates in shared houses of three storeys are 50% higher than those in shared houses of one or two storeys, but could that simply be because those properties have 50% more floors and maybe 50% more occupiers in each property?

The Entec report contains some good stuff, but you do need to read the detail, not just the headlines.  If you want another LHA guide that supports the provision of sound traditional construction in three storey shared houses, have a look at the DASH guide.  (Decent and Safe Homes East Midlands).  I believe that that covers about 40 local authority areas.

In addition, the LACORs guide is not just another LHA guide, it is co-published by LACORs, the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health, the Chief Fire Officers Association and is forwarded by two ministers from the Department for Communities and Local Government.  The list of contributors and consultees is long indeed.

Regards




Where does one get the Entec report?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.