HMO standards

[jakespop]

I am looking at a property comprising a shop on Ground Floor with two storey premises above used as a shared let with 5 students. Separate access to living accommodation. No protected route in flat but interlinked smoke detectors. Nothing in shop. My idea would be to install fire alarm with auto detection in shop to alert residents above( possibly 5839 part 1) and leave interlinked  detectors as they are. If applying LACORS guide I would think I could assess as two storey with no need for fire doors as long as adequate protection between Ground and First. Any views are welcome.

[kurnal]

Hi Jakespop
Are you saying you will rely on window exits from the top floor? If persons try to lower themselves from the top floor windows they are going to get hurt. It must be more than 4.5m above ground level?

[jakespop]

Thanks Kurnal. Although property is on a sloping site it would be the case that top floor is over 4.5 m.  I was happy using the orange guide where this would have to be a protected route but I am currently trying to use the Lacors guide as it seems this will now be the accepted standard of local fire authority. In paragraph 9.7  on page 12,  my property fits all of conditions, no mention there about height which is in next paragraph as alternative to consideration of internal escape route conditions. Am I missing something? I would also like opinion on fire alarm.

[kurnal]

I assumed that you were looking at it as a prospect rather than as an existing building in use.
I find the lacors guide a bit of a nightmare, it seems to me that with the guidance, the examples and diagrams  there are lots of  contradictions which if used in isolation can justify almost anything anywhere anytime.
If the building is existing and is in current use then probably you are right- 9.7 stresses the need for a well enclosed staircase and fire detection-  a standard that seems reasonable in the circumstances. If on the other hand you are acquiring and carrying out any building work then I would  suggest the ADB is the correct solution.

As far as the shop is concerned, assuming the residential has a fully independent access and escape and there is a compartment floor to a one hour standard separating them then there is no need for any detection on the shop. If in doubt and you put it in just consider how it can be controlled- if it goes off at 3am on Christmas Eve can the occupants of the flat silence and reset it?

[jakespop]

Thanks that is very useful. Yes I had considered the alarm situation, but at present it is not even to 30 minute FR separation in some places. I think, because of age of building, and question marks over voids etc that I will consider AFD in shop to 5839 part 1 with sounder in flat. The location etc of panel is an issue, but most important thing is that they are aware of anything in shop and evacuate. Any other observations would be welcome.

[AnthonyB]

In the long run wouldn't it be better to upgrade the FR than have the ongoing management of alarms issue, the passive fire specialists can do a lot with the various materials available to them, it needn't entail ripping out an entire floor and rebuilding.

[CivvyFSO]

If you are so unsure about voids and compartmentation then you should definitely look at giving at least 30 minutes compartmentation with detection possibly compensating for the remaining 30 minutes that is missing. People are not going to move quick unless they know for sure that there is a fire threatening them, so if there is any weakness in compartmentation that could mean that the staircase lost quickly to smoke/fire before anyone makes a move to evacuate.

The sensible option is (As AnthonyB suggests) to give it 60 mins compartmentation as per ADB.

[jakespop]

Thanks Civvy FSO. This is along the lines that I am thinking. Together with the Part 6 in the flat and protection to risk rooms, e.g kitchen, I believe this is a practical and sensible solution. Can you just confirm what ADB is, dont recognise abbreviation.

[JC100]

Approved Document B

[wtfdik]

On this vein can someone offer advice on the following. Victorian building of 4 floors (G123) converted in 1970s to 6 flats. Sterile single staircase. Single point SD in flats been adivised that afd required in common parts. I think there is enough compatmentation to allow for defend in place. Any thoughts?

[CivvyFSO]

What compartmentation is in place between the rooms and to the stair?

[JC100]

Buildings designed and contructed to CP3 part IV:1971 were allowed to adopt a 'stay put' policy. If the building was converted to this standard i doubt there would be a problem.

[kurnal]

Hi wtfdik
Most buildings converted to flats did not meet the stringent requirements for compartmentation, protection to the staircase, layout of flats, ventilation and travel distances that CP3 would ask for. So a stay put policy may not be appropriate.

For example does your building have one hour fire resisting compartment floors, one hour walls, half hour fire resisting doors to flats, flats internal arrangement to provide a protected lobby, no fire risk in staircases?  Or alternative routes of escape from the upper floor levels?

[jakespop]

Just looking at the LACORS document in more detail. Where the examples are given it indicates that FSO does not apply to "Shared Houses" which fit the definition. Hence I would assume that no fire risk assessment required although it would still be covered by Housing Act. In my experience Fire Risk Assessments are still being carried out on this type of property. Am I reading this incorrectly or is it just another "grey" area of this guide?

[kurnal]

The fire safety order does not apply to domestic premises ( but see article 31).

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20051541.htm

However even if the upper floors are classed as a shared house then the fire safety order would still apply to the shop on the ground floor, in the event of a fire in the shop the persons in the domestic premises above could be placed at risk. They are  covered by the description "relevant persons" who may be at risk in case of a fire in the shop.