Door closers on fire doors

[dar1]

Thanks Nearlythere but apologies as I'm still a bit confused.  If self closers are not needed unless there is a dead end situation (as appears to be suggested in the diagrams you correctly said I was referring to), I can't understand why p122 of the guide contains the sentence I wuoted in my previous post that all fire doors should have self clsoers?

I'm not arguing (honestly), just trying to understand!  If fire doors didn't always need closers this would be great and would save a lot of propping!

When would you insist on fire doors being on closers?

Thanks

[dar1]

Hello Jokar,

Our posts crossed paths!  I understand the need to make a risk based decision and that if you've got AFD then this may negate the need for self closing fire doors.

What I'm struggling with though is the assertion that self closers aren't needed ordinarily needed whereas the Fire guides and Building Regs Part B do seem fairly unequivical in this requirement where fire doors are fitted.

Maybe I've misunderstood some of the posts in this thread though so please bear with me?

Thanks

[nearlythere]

Thanks Nearlythere but apologies as I'm still a bit confused.  If self closers are not needed unless there is a dead end situation (as appears to be suggested in the diagrams you correctly said I was referring to), I can't understand why p122 of the guide contains the sentence I wuoted in my previous post that all fire doors should have self clsoers?

I'm not arguing (honestly), just trying to understand!  If fire doors didn't always need closers this would be great and would save a lot of propping!

When would you insist on fire doors being on closers?

Thanks

Because dar1 it is only fire doors which usually need to be self closing or maintained locked. If the door is not fire resisting, and does not have to be because of other control measures, then there is no need for it to be self closing.
Fire resisting doors which are subject to normal traffic would have self closing devices fitted unless they are provided with hold open devices designed to release the door to allow it to close in the event of a fire. Fire doors to stores and cupboards can be controlled by keeping them locked shut.

[Mushy]

Dar1

I'm am in the middle of this exact scenario

A dead end corridor with fire doors and self closers are being wedged open...usual stuff...too hot etc

so we are fitting auto detection in all rooms and removing the self closers. The doors are still the same doors...it would be daft to change them for a non- fire door!

[dar1]

Thanks all, just had the lightbulb moment. 

Think my initial intepretation of the question was wrong.  I can see now the question was related more to whether if the doors are inappropriate/unnecessary as fire doors in the first place did they still need closers.

So, where the fire door is needed for compartmenation etc reasons and safeguarding escape routes, then closers would still be needed.  In other instances where not e.g. due to AFD in all rooms or the fire door was not necessary, then closers woud not be needed.

Thanks for the clarification

[kurnal]

Many buildings have fire resisting doors installed by architects in locations where a fire resisting door is not required. If the door has been installed but the fire strategy does not require a fire resisting door in this location then no self closer is required.

It can be very confusing though, had a discussion with a young fire officer this week in this same scenario. The office doors had fire seals and three hinges but no self closers, a fire officer served a letter of non compliance asking for self closers to be fitted, when I pointed out that the offices had two way travel and the partitions had large vision panels with plain glazing he stammered a bit and promised to send a satisfactory letter.

[Clevelandfire 3]

bless the young fire officer. I hope you were gentle Kurnal. Self closers only really important when considering sleeping accomodation. Even then you may assume that the door will be kept closed for security and privacy (until fire occurs and they run out of their rooms forgetting to close doors behiond them)

[nearlythere]

Many buildings have fire resisting doors installed by architects in locations where a fire resisting door is not required. If the door has been installed but the fire strategy does not require a fire resisting door in this location then no self closer is required.

It can be very confusing though, had a discussion with a young fire officer this week in this same scenario. The office doors had fire seals and three hinges but no self closers, a fire officer served a letter of non compliance asking for self closers to be fitted, when I pointed out that the offices had two way travel and the partitions had large vision panels with plain glazing he stammered a bit and promised to send a satisfactory letter.

How could a fire officer, regardless of age, not have seen the reason why a self closer was not needed? Where would you start to negotiate issues of something of a more complex nature because anything else would be?
Is this the level of competency we must now expect of New Fire Safety Officer?

[Mushy]

self closers are a pain in the arse on two way travel routes cos complaints are always coming in that the doors are being wedged open...take the things off...saves wedging!

[CivvyFSO]

take the things off...saves wedging!

Obviously after assessing whether it is required as a fire door?

[Mushy]

no civvy...rip em off willy nilly 

[Fishy]

A modern fire-resisting door leaf doesn't need to cost much more than a non-fire resisting door leaf; the frames (for FD30 at least) need not typically be better timber and are often pre-machined on one face for the intumescent strips (which need only cost a few quid per doorset).  So, what sometimes happens is rather than running the risk that they won't install a fire door where it's wanted, the chippies will install fire doors, including intumescent seals, everywhere, 'cos it's easier, less risky & doesn't cost them very much. 

BTW that fire resisting doorsets are more robust isn't necessarily true - there are some perfectly adequate fire doors that are made of little else but chipboard with a hardwood lipping on each long edge.