Author Topic: Door closers on fire doors  (Read 15200 times)

Offline David Rooney

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
    • http://ctafire.co.uk
Door closers on fire doors
« on: March 03, 2009, 12:54:23 PM »

Is it always the case that in your typical office scenario, firedoors to offices off of corridors should always have door closers fitted ??

In this particular instance, there are intumescent strips in the frames (no cold smoke brushes) but the doors are swinging in the breeze.

The building is only 5 years old etc, and the risk assessment by a third party hasn't hightlighted it as a problem.

Thanks
CTA Fire - BAFE SP203 - F Gas Accredited - Wireless Fire Alarm System Specialists - Established 1985 - www.ctafire.co.uk
Natural Born Cynic

Offline nearlythere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: Door closers on fire doors
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2009, 01:17:04 PM »

Is it always the case that in your typical office scenario, firedoors to offices off of corridors should always have door closers fitted ??

In this particular instance, there are intumescent strips in the frames (no cold smoke brushes) but the doors are swinging in the breeze.

The building is only 5 years old etc, and the risk assessment by a third party hasn't hightlighted it as a problem.

Thanks
Normally not unless the corridor is a dead end condition.
Because a fire door is in situ it certainly doesn't mean that it is needed. I recently carried out a FRA of a factory which contained a store room within the production area. The store had a fire door fitted and had all the trimmings. SC, intumescent and smoke seals and "Fire Door-Keep Closed" sign. Problem was it did not have a ceiling.
You will probably find that an over provision of fire doors is caused by designers not knowing when they were not needed.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 01:21:15 PM by nearlythere »
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline TFEM

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 121
Re: Door closers on fire doors
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2009, 01:40:08 PM »
.....and also by builders that can make a few more quid out of a client by providing top-spec, irrespective of whether it's needed.
I also had a scenario where one corner of a big office was split up into smaller units (roughly 2mtrs X 2mtrs each room) with no change of use and all the new doors were full fire doors with full seals and closers...my customer only found out when he asked why I hadn't provided FDKS signs on them to which I replied that although they were fire doors, they didn't need to be so could have been wedged open to his hearts delight! 

Offline wee brian

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2425
Re: Door closers on fire doors
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2009, 02:28:44 PM »
Sometime people use fire doors because they are a bit tougher than ordinary doors. I've also found fire door keep shut signs on non-fire doors they were used to encourage people to shut doors for acoustice/thermal insulation rather than fire safety.

Offline AnthonyB

  • Firenet Extinguisher Expert
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2492
    • http://www.firewizard.co.uk
Re: Door closers on fire doors
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2009, 02:39:18 PM »


Normally not unless the corridor is a dead end condition.
 

And according to the guidance books not even then if there is AFD to all the rooms!

If you put closers on doors that don't really need them you are just wasting money in some situations as they will just get wedged & the wedge habit is one you want to avoid getting staff used to.
Anthony Buck
Owner & Fire Safety Consultant at Fire Wizard


Extinguisher/Fire History Enthusiast

Fire Extinguisher Facebook Group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=65...415&ref=ts
http://www.youtube.com/user/contactacb
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/anthony-buck-36

Offline David Rooney

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
    • http://ctafire.co.uk
Re: Door closers on fire doors
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2009, 05:39:23 PM »
Thanks men... it's not really my area but just interested to know....
CTA Fire - BAFE SP203 - F Gas Accredited - Wireless Fire Alarm System Specialists - Established 1985 - www.ctafire.co.uk
Natural Born Cynic

Offline jokar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1472
Re: Door closers on fire doors
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2009, 09:08:57 PM »
I am continually amazed by the lack of knowledge, not you David, of individuals who do FRA's and audits with regard to separation and compartmentation matters.  Without at least some background information from ADB, the CLG guides are useless.

Offline nearlythere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: Door closers on fire doors
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2009, 07:29:46 AM »
I am continually amazed by the lack of knowledge, not you David, of individuals who do FRA's and audits with regard to separation and compartmentation matters.  Without at least some background information from ADB, the CLG guides are useless.
I have stopped being amazed jokar.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
Re: Door closers on fire doors
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2009, 07:46:17 AM »
I have stopped being amazed jokar.

Thats amazing NT

Offline nearlythere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: Door closers on fire doors
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2009, 08:17:42 AM »
I am continually amazed by the lack of knowledge, not you David, of individuals who do FRA's and audits with regard to separation and compartmentation matters.  Without at least some background information from ADB, the CLG guides are useless.
I have stopped being amazed jokar.
I mean I have stopped being a maze D Jokar. I keep getting lost in myself.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline David Rooney

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 891
    • http://ctafire.co.uk
Re: Door closers on fire doors
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2009, 12:49:19 PM »
I am continually amazed by the lack of knowledge, not you David, of individuals who do FRA's and audits with regard to separation and compartmentation matters.  Without at least some background information from ADB, the CLG guides are useless.

So with this in mind... and then bringing 7273-4 into the equation where various allowances are made with regard whether fire doors are installed along corridors etc... how is a fire alarm designer supposed to know what's what unless he's got a degree in building regs and mind reading ??
CTA Fire - BAFE SP203 - F Gas Accredited - Wireless Fire Alarm System Specialists - Established 1985 - www.ctafire.co.uk
Natural Born Cynic

Offline jokar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1472
Re: Door closers on fire doors
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2009, 06:19:10 PM »
NT thinks it is part of a maze, perhaps making it crystal.

I suppose it depends on what you are trying to achieve.  Without being a FA engineer, are you concerned about noise attenuation, the length of corridors without fire doors, distances apart of BGCP and how the structure will affect this?

Offline dar1

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: Door closers on fire doors
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2009, 10:59:22 AM »
Saw this late... Is this another example of confusing advice being given in the HGM guides then?  As mentioned already in this thread by others, the diagrams show no self closers on doors with AFD yet the info on self closing devices (p122 in offices and shops guide) says "All fire-resisting doors, other than those to locked cupbaords and service ducts, should be fitted with an appropriately controlled self-closing device". 

Offline nearlythere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: Door closers on fire doors
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2009, 11:25:48 AM »
Saw this late... Is this another example of confusing advice being given in the HGM guides then?  As mentioned already in this thread by others, the diagrams show no self closers on doors with AFD yet the info on self closing devices (p122 in offices and shops guide) says "All fire-resisting doors, other than those to locked cupbaords and service ducts, should be fitted with an appropriately controlled self-closing device". 
I think that's easily explained dar1. The diagram you I think you are referring to shows doors in a dead end situation as not being fire resisting as the risk is controlled by detection in the rooms. As the doors are not FR there is no need to make them self closing. If the risk was controlled by providing fire doors along the dead end condition then they should be self closing, as the paragragh is stating.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline jokar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1472
Re: Door closers on fire doors
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2009, 11:30:23 AM »
As many have stated before, the guidance documents, whatever they are and whatever are being used can not be read in isolation.  You need to understand all of the principles to make a correct judgement on whether things are correct or not and to take account of the risk factors.