Are British Standards worth the paper they are written on?

[nearlythere]

All of these professional bodies and with their abundance of expertise and experience there are such problems. I can only guess that they don't take their representation duties very seriously. Maybe it's time for the thinking man to have a go?

[nim]

The trade are actually in the minority on the committee but do have full and proper representation. 

Other members include IFE, CFOA, CLG, IET, NSI,ECA, NICEIC, BCMA etc etc.

When you say the trade are in a minority then surely the people who are in the majority are still the trade in that they must have a connection with the standard they are writing. Surely these (IFE, CFOA, CLG, IET, NSI,ECA, NICEIC, BCMA) are all trade and between the lot of them they should be able to produce a standard which is common sense, especially when they aren't normally writing it from scratch and they are normally just trying to tweak and improve a previous standard?

Once again we really need to get involved at draft stage if we want to make a difference.

[Tom Sutton]

Maybe the numbers of people involved is the problem, an old adage says, “The camel is a horse designed by a committee", and "Too many cooks spoil the broth" there is a lot of truth in these old sayings. If one or maybe two technical experts wrote the BS and on completion it was put out for consultation to a wider audience. The draft could be reworked taking into account the comments received, at least we would know who to blame.

[Wiz]

Guys, I think we are getting off track here.

The accuracy or relevance of the standards is not the issue at this point (that is something that can be addressed if and when the main aim is achieved!)

The main aim now is reduce the various confusing/conflicting standards/recommendations/guidances into one songsheet from which everyone can sing the same song.

i.e. One set of rules that everyone refer to.

Please post here if you agree or disagree with the above.

Please start a new thread for any discussion on the make-up of BSI committees.

[GregC]

As long as it has a healthy dose of common sense I would prefer one standard.

[nearlythere]

Guys, I think we are getting off track here.

The accuracy or relevance of the standards is not the issue at this point (that is something that can be addressed if and when the main aim is achieved!)

The main aim now is reduce the various confusing/conflicting standards/recommendations/guidances into one songsheet from which everyone can sing the same song.

i.e. One set of rules that everyone refer to.

Please post here if you agree or disagree with the above.

Please start a new thread for any discussion on the make-up of BSI committees.

But the make up of the committee could well be part of the problem Wiz. Why with such representation is there this problem? The F & Rescue Services, which is represented by CFOA, has Fire Safety guidance which differs from the BS which differs from Building Control guidance. Surely someone has raised this very matter somewhere?

[nim]

The main aim now is reduce the various confusing/conflicting standards/recommendations/guidances into one songsheet from which everyone can sing the same song.

Except if others like you had access to and commented on the drafts when they are produced and those that produced the conflicting standards either sat on the committees or also commented on the drafts thern eventually (hopefully) you would get one songsheet.

The trouble with British Standards is that as far as I am aware they aim to revise a standard every five years. So it's a long time to live with a crap standard. Unless they issue ammendments mid term which cost a fortune.

[kurnal]

Do we need National standards at all? In the single market how can National standards support open market  trading conditions, especially when there are  substantial differences between some  BS and EN.

The disease that Dr Wiz has diagnosed goes further than the BSI though, its inherent in Government- look at Fire Safety Law. Why oh why  only six months after the Fire Safety Order came into force did the Government see fit to produce further conflicting fire safety Regulations for building sites under the umbrella of the CDM Regs 2007?

And why did the people who wrote the Guidance Document for Fire Risk Assessment in sleeping accommodation decide to define their own meaning for LD3 when compared to to BS5839 part 6?   

And why did the BSI committee responsible for BS9251 not use  flow rate calculations based on those sprinkler heads that are actually available on the market rather than hoping that the Industry would produce new type heads to meet the BS spec?

I am coming to the conclusion that many of these standards are becoming far too technical,  if we need British Standards at all then perhaps they should  set out functional requirements  rather than technical standards?

The highway code sets out the standards for safe driving on the road. Much as he yearns to learn the noble art, Toddy will not find details of how to double declutch within it.

[colin todd]

My neighbour had a chimney fire last night, and I did notice that the crew who attended were not double declutching-proof if any were needed that things have changed a lot since you drove one Kurnal. I did heroically however lead the appliance up the private drive in which we live, and managed to lecture the OIC on road widths for fire appliances in AD B , in response to his question as to whether the appliance could get up the drive. Possibly the shorter answer would have been that, since its private land, I do sometimes drive down from the neighbours house after several Taliskers, to date without any mishap, so it should be no problem for a fire appliance.

[Davo]

CT

You drive to your neighbours?
Truly one or both of you have been well remunerated for your labours


davo

[Galeon]

Good advice from Mr T , If I cant drive there it aint worth going'  :

[messy]

I feel sorry for the fire crew. If it's not bad enough turning out to a chimney fire (I have never met anyone who actually enjoys these type of jobs), they also get Sir Todd of Colinshire lecturing them on ADB and vehicle access.

Colin, in return for all the useful advice you have given us all in the past, and just in case you are in this position again, I think the answer the crew were looking for was either: "Yes" or "No".

[Thomas Brookes]

I have just started sitting on some of the BSI Committees FSH/12/1 installation and testing FSH/12/2 fire detectors and FSH/12/3 control and indicating equipment, so have seen from the both sides of the fence a little (first meeting was in Jan, which I pointed out Mr T was missing).

Anyhow I can assure you when changes are being looked at they are normally debated to death and then debated a bit more, and dont forget also that a lot of issue are also part of europene standards as well and unfortunately we (the UK) do not always have the final say or sometimes a compromise has to be reached with many countrys etc.
At the Committee meeting for FSH/12/3 in Jan there were 14 people debating about 20 different points from BS EN 54 and I can assure you from a new boy on the committee at the end of it my head was hurting!!.

The other side of this is that anyone can write to the BSI about the standards and points in them, which assuming are a valid point will get looked into.

[Midland Retty]

In principle I agree with you Wiz.

I find, for example, the issue of HMG issuing conflicting guidance simply ludicrous - The classic example being ADB allowing different exit widths to those given in the current Fire Safety guidance to name but one.

Of course discrepencies like that need to be addressed (and frankly should never have occurred in the first place).

On the other hand however things aren't quite so simple...

This forum is a prime example of how much we can all disagree on certain subjects. Ask a question here and you often get 10 different opinions from 10 different people.

Relate that to the BS committees who have the unenviable task of trawling through correspondance from interested parties making comment on draft standards during a consultation process.

Think of how many replies they must get, and what is involved in trying to sift through them all and make sense of them. Think of a committe pouring over other guidance to see how it compares with theirs.

You can never please all of the people all of the time. Whilst I agree a certain level of consistency would be helpful we must be careful not to create "over standardisation" (standardization). Otherwise we are simply heading back to prescription without any flexibility to deal with individual situations and premises.

What I'd like to see is that suites of documents issued by the same author (such as HMG for instance)  all tie up with one another and that there is no "internal" conflict between the guides in that sense.

[colin todd]

Davo, Dont you start, its enough that the neighbours take great pleasure winding me up that I sometimes drive between the two houses. I can now claim legitamately that I was merely doing 7(2)(d)s. The truth is simpler, namely that I live in the country with no light pollution and the lane is so dark I walk into bushes otherwise. Plus if the Princess is making a royal visit, she worries about her shoes on the unmade lane and insists on a royal motorcade.

Messey: Typical fire safety officer- you just want black and white training, with no underpinning education that would allow informed decision making. I think the OIC felt enriched by our chat as we walked up the lane. Even if he didnt, he would not have been rude enough to say so as Surrey F&RS are really cool, their fire safety officers never shout at people but are always mild mannered and helpful, and they rarely if ever chew gum.  Your best hope for your erstwhile employer is that, on regionalisation, it becomes Surrey's eastern command.