Security grills to flat entrance doors

[JPAH]

I have recently come across a situation where the fire service have issued a notice on the landlord of residential premises (block of flats) were some tenants have fixed security grills over their flat entrance doors.  Obviously these aren’t the most salubrious residences and there is a fear of doors being kicked in when the tenants are out hence the additional security.

I understand the reason for the fire service concern but I just wonder is it a reasonable stance to take.  I know what I would want to say if someone told me I couldn't protect my premises - Englishman's home being his castle and all that!!

Any comments much appreciated.   

[nearlythere]

I have recently come across a situation where the fire service have issued a notice on the landlord of residential premises (block of flats) were some tenants have fixed security grills over their flat entrance doors.  Obviously these aren’t the most salubrious residences and there is a fear of doors being kicked in when the tenants are out hence the additional security.

I understand the reason for the fire service concern but I just wonder is it a reasonable stance to take.  I know what I would want to say if someone told me I couldn't protect my premises - Englishman's home being his castle and all that!!

Any comments much appreciated.   

Strange one but the F&R Sevice can issue a notice on anything it likes. Whether it is correct or not is the issue. Unless the landlord appeals the notice it is in force and must be complied with. Failure to appeal results in this type of nonsense.
Don't see the point really as long as it does not effect the other building users and the flat occupiers can open it from the inside to escape unless they want to stay put.
Fraid I don't see the reason for the Fire Service concern.

[Big A]

I have recently come across a situation where the fire service have issued a notice on the landlord of residential premises (block of flats) were some tenants have fixed security grills over their flat entrance doors.  Obviously these aren’t the most salubrious residences and there is a fear of doors being kicked in when the tenants are out hence the additional security.

I understand the reason for the fire service concern but I just wonder is it a reasonable stance to take.  I know what I would want to say if someone told me I couldn't protect my premises - Englishman's home being his castle and all that!!

Any comments much appreciated.   

I would say that the FRS has no right to enforce this, especially if the mainn front doors are FR.
BTW It is not necessarily the case that an enforcement notice must be complied with unless previously appealed. There was a case in the metropolis where the fire Authority commenced legal proceedings against a pub landlord for failing to comply with an enforcement notice. The magistrate found them not guilty on the grounds that the notice was unreasonable.

[JPAH]

The issue I suppose is 'reasonable' access to put out a fire in an unoccupied flat.  I don't think this is an acceptable request however either.  The issue of someone being locked in by a third party arsonist doesnt really fly as these grills can be locked in the open position when not in use - and that is the occupants responsibility.  Seems a strange one!

[Tom Sutton]

Under which legislation has the notice been issued or is it the bluff and persuasion act?

[Big T]

I have just finished dealing with an enforcement notice issued by the LFB. Whilst discussing the action plan we got on to security gates.

He agreed with me that if the fire service don't have a suitbale access tool to bypass a security gate then we are in trouble.

The gates are easily openable by Large hammer, Holligan bar, angle grinder or cutting equipment.

Locker 3 "Miscellaneous smashing tools" from memory.

[nearlythere]

I have just finished dealing with an enforcement notice issued by the LFB. Whilst discussing the action plan we got on to security gates.

He agreed with me that if the fire service don't have a suitbale access tool to bypass a security gate then we are in trouble.

The gates are easily openable by Large hammer, Holligan bar, angle grinder or cutting equipment.

Locker 3 "Miscellaneous smashing tools" from memory.

I thought it would be cheaper for the occupier if access was gained by a window. Bit of glazing is much cheaper to replace than a door.
What ever happened to good old fashioned firemanship/firepersonship/firefightership/commonsense?

[Simon72]

there is a fine line between making your premises safe, and maintaining a suitable escape route from the flat via the common landlord staircase, much will depend on the location of the flat, the occupancy type, and the view of the 'fire police' (local fire authority).

LFB are used to this scenario, and obviously base their decision on past experiences. i'm assuming we are talking about LFB?

if that's what they decide, then who are we to question? LOL

but then its the 'same old same old' Dynamic Risk Assessment

simon

[Mike Buckley]

Access by the windows gets a bit more exciting on thr seventh floor!!

[nearlythere]

Access by the windows gets a bit more exciting on thr seventh floor!!

You mean the seventh floooooooooooooooooooooooooooor?

[Midland Retty]

I too am baffled about why the fire authority in question has issued notice on this. Bizzare.

I could understand it if there was the danger that someone could lock the tennants in their own flat, but otherwise Im at a complete loss.

[JC100]

I completely agree that if the tenant had installed it themselves and it wasn't affecting anyone else there isn't a problem. What if it was the responsible person (landlord) who had installed the grills to their tenants flats as a security measure?

If a fire occured and the tenant could not escape as the key for the grill was in the kitchen that was on fire, would the responsible person would be prosecuted for failing to provide escape without the use of a key?

[CivvyFSO]

The problem would be which legislation would be used. The landlord has a duty under the RRO to make sure that persons are protected from a fire in the common area, if someone dies in the flat of origin it is not really of concern within the RRO. The enforcers of the Housing Act might have another opinion on it though.

There is also the Occupiers Liability Act 1957 which seems to be retrospective to any damage/hurt caused, i.e. You can't make the RP put it right under the Act, but it would possibly entitle persons to damages if an accident happens and the duty of care could be proven.

[Mike Buckley]

Having seen some of the security grills it is possible to get these which require a key to open from the outside but can be opened from the inside by a simple handle. At the worst a Yale type lock fitted to a plate would do the trick.

[SmokeyDokey]

This type of problem does not necessarily relate to escpe from the flats. I know of more than one case where the grills/steel doors had been installed and prevented access to the dry riser main inlet and/or outlets - so effectively no dry riser and an Article 38 issue.

So despite what Big A and others had to say there can be some very good reasons for a notice