Monitoring services through the fire alarm system

[David Rooney]

Recently we have been asked to monitor the status of fire curtains and dampers through an analogue fds.

ie. an indication on the panel if the dampers or curtains close etc.

Obvioulsly these can be set to a "lower" priority than fire conditions so they will not interfere with a true fire condition from a normal device but is this actually allowed ?

[Mr. P]

My experience of electrical dampers is that the dampers have their own indicating panel, hopefully adjacent to FP. If the dampers are on fusible link, they are not usual identified remotely.
Sorry, probably not of much help...

[Wiz]

David, I know nothing in the BS that says you can't use the addressable fire alarm system for transmitting other system signals around the loop. let's face it, if it doesn't interfere in any way, should it matter? In your case you are talking about equipment definitely relating to the fire alarm system in general, so I think that it is even less of an issue.

The problem is how you indicate the signal. You possibly don't want it to come up on the panel as a fire or a fault condition. Therefore any panels provide a 'transparent' function where an input causes an output (to give an alarm?) without any indication on the control panel

[David Rooney]

My experience of electrical dampers is that the dampers have their own indicating panel, hopefully adjacent to FP. If the dampers are on fusible link, they are not usual identified remotely.
Sorry, probably not of much help...

The dampers are electrically operated and I believe they will be programmed to close according to the zone of origin and true, it's not usual to indicate operation but this is the way the client wants it....

[David Rooney]

David, I know nothing in the BS that says you can't use the addressable fire alarm system for transmitting other system signals around the loop. let's face it, if it doesn't interfere in any way, should it matter? In your case you are talking about equipment definitely relating to the fire alarm system in general, so I think that it is even less of an issue.

The problem is how you indicate the signal. You possibly don't want it to come up on the panel as a fire or a fault condition. Therefore any panels provide a 'transparent' function where an input causes an output (to give an alarm?) without any indication on the control panel

Yep I've looked too but can't see any reason why not.

I think as you say we'll use a form of "transparent" signal to cause an LED on an indicator panel, otherwise it will be difficult for anybody to to actually see the confirmation text if there is a fire condition going on at the time...

I just had this thought in my head that there was great intakes of breath a while ago about such "integrated" systems...

[colin todd]

There is nothing to prevent integration of systems, provided this does not reduce the reliability of the fire alarm system.

[Allen Higginson]

You could use C & E programming using I/O's and a relay/LED annunciator board Dave with no actual actuation shown on the fire alarm (ie - one particular input = one particular output with no actual CIE action tied to it).

[Wiz]

David, CT's has now confirmed my original advice to you.

Buzz is thinking in the way I would have assumed that you would do it.

For the output, always remember that it is possible to use the loop to power your remote signal as long as you are using low currents. Just switch the loop voltage via the contacts of an output unit to power a LED & low-current buzzer.

If you want to build a special remote unit, Ampac manufacture XP95 protocol I/O units on a small pcb (smaller than Apollo anyway). Let me know if I can help you with these.

[David Rooney]

Thanks Wiz.... I was looking more towards Hochiki and Kentec... they make a very good LED output sytem (Matrix) that appears to be very flexible.

We've had the training on Ampac also... do you use a lot of their kit ?

http://www.kentec.co.uk/news/mimic_master.pdf

[Wiz]

David, I thought your requirement was maybe for just a simple indicator/buzzer ouput. The Kentec matrix looks excellent but maybe a bit expensive/overkill for indicating just 2 or 3 warnings. I thought it might be easier/cheaper to 'knock something up'!

My idea is to use the power from the loop for your warnings but switch it from an o/p unit.

I highlighted Ampac only if you were using Apollo XP95 protocol because they make their own XP95 interfaces that are much smaller than the Apollo versions and easier to build into 'something you knock up'

Ampac is currently my favourite addressable panel manufacturer. I've used them for 5 years and been happy with the product and the service. Not many people know about them but they are massive in Australasia and the Far-East, so big that I understand they are the sole distributor of Apollo products in Australia

[David Rooney]

No the system we are looking at is monitoring over a hundred dampers and and sprinkler valves... bit more than a knock up..!!

Ampac is certainly good... mind you the cause and effects programming is bit boggling at first.

I kew they were big... but not that big..!

What makes it your flavour of the month ??

[Wiz]

David, I have found the Ampac FireFinder range to be extensive, competively-priced, reliable and flexible in use. It is not perfect - although nothing is. Isn't it? !!!

I actually like the flow-chart style of C&E programming but accept that it can be a bit daunting to use at first. If you have any problems with it please give me a call, I now have lots of experience of it.

The new Ampac Loopsense range is potentially even better than FireFinder. It includes more facilities that are applicable for use in the UK. However, I haven't yet got my head fully around the upgraded C&E programming provided with it, and fear it might not be as good as the FireFinder.

[David Rooney]

Thanks Wiz.... I'll talk to Terry next time she calls and have another look at these panels....!

[spanner]

I don’t see a problem with monitoring other systems, when i use to work for one of the "well known" closed protical companys we installed a large fire panel network in a new london office block that monitored all the sprinkler flow valves as well as the tamper shut valves as well as the open/close state of all dampers in the building (we are talking about a few hundred dambers)
We was basicly using the system as a part BMS as in the main control room we had fireman overide switches to open/close groups of dampers through C&E

Personaly i would be inclined to use a kentec, kidde or advanced panel.