Self-closing hinges

[stevew]

I am interested in knowing if anyone has has any dealings with a fire authority and/or building control
regarding the use of self-closing hinges on fire doors. 

My reason for asking is that a client is looking to fit this type of closer on flat entrance doors, both existing and new build.  The local building control has stated that they have no objection but advised me to consult the fire authority for their opinion. 

[Phoenix]

There are many considerations in assessing the adequacy of fire door closing devices.  I've no doubt that a full discussion will follow, but the best advice is to do what the building control people said and ask the local fire authority what their opinion is.  They are the ones that will be enforcing the FSO.

The sort of things that are of interest are, does the device close the door?  Will it still close the door in, say, ten years time or is there a maintenance programme in place that will keep it able to do so? 

Ensure they're not being used in conjunction with Yale type locks, as that will lead to many lock-outs.

It's not a full answer to the complex issue you raise but it is the best advice for the time being.

Stu

[patrickhamblin]

Are you referring to rising butt hinges? The CLG Guides indicate that rising butt hinges are not suitable for use as a self closing device due to their inability to close and latch the door from any angle.

[partymarty007]

Try this document - 'Hardware for timber fire and escape doors. Code of practice. Issue 1'. Although no longer current it i still cited in the Building Regulations. It has a whole section on hinges.

[CivvyFSO]

FWIW, if documents being 'current' is an issue, then there is also an issue 2 of that document, and it says the exact same thing about rising butt hinges (basically that they are not recommended for fire doors) and gives the reasons why.

[stevew]

I am not referring to rising butt hinges. 

The hinges are in a set of 3 and act as a complete door closer. Hinges
can be individually adjusted.  They are tested to BS476 Part 22 (1987) to 30/60 minutes.
Also tested to EN1634-1 (2000) for 68 minutes. Tested by
FIRA for age, wear, and weight for 80,000 cycles at 90° and 90,000 cycles at 400mm
opening and closing.

Has anyone come across them and if so I would like to know how they have received by fire authorities.

As I see it, the only possible concern would be ensuring that they close the door from ANY angle and will be capable
of overcoming any latch and/or smoke seal where fitted.

[nearlythere]

Can't say as I have ever seen them Steve but would like some further info if you get some.

[Tom Sutton]

Try http://www.safelincs.co.uk/Fire-Door-Hinges/ this is what steve may be talking about?

[Phoenix]

Hi Steve,

If these closers shut the doors effectively then the fire authority are obliged to accept them because they perform the required function.  Just because they're a bit cheaper than over-head closers doesn't mean the fire authority can reject a perfectly good functioning door closer.  I'm sure you could get gold plated door closers if you wanted to but the fire authority would be over-stepping the mark in asking for them.

The testing you mention certainly appears to be thorough, that's a lot of door opening and closing.  The acid test is, do they work in situ and will they keep working for a cost effective period of time after installation?  Testing over 80,000 and then 90,000 cycles is a good test of durability but you did not mention a test of duration.  Testing thousands of cycles over a short period of time is different to those same cycles being performed over a couple of years with the door being wedged open and the springs held under tension for half its life.

All the fire authority want is an effective self closing door.  If these closers start to fail in six months time, the fire authority will no longer be satisfied (and it doesn't matter if the fire authority know about it or not - the requirements of the FSO will not be complied with) and the closers will have to be replaced.  This will be expensive.  It is for the responsible person to make the decision as to whether to go for the cheaper option (testing appears good but no track record of continuing success) or the more expensive over-head closers (with a proven history of effectiveness).  Another issue the responsible person will have to consider is the aesthetic appearance of the closers.  He may not want bulky over-head closers over his expensive and otherwise nicely decorated doors.  



I'll finish by repeating this important piece of advice - talk to the local fire and rescue service personnel.  It doesn't make much difference what other FRSs have done round the country, the local FRS will be the ones enforcing the FSO in this case.

Stu

[Fishy]

My experience is that you probably won't get them to enable self-closing reliably, over a latch and/or smoke seals.  The Chippy will probably end up winding the spring up so much that they slam shut, & they wouldn't work at all if the door was only opened a little.  You can buy a perfectly good face-fixed overhead door closer for less than £20-00, so why bother?

[stevew]

Hi All

Yes twsutton you are correct they are what I am talking about.

We cannot refuse to accept them on the grounds that they MAY NOT be managed and maintained.

Phoenix, it matters very much what fire authorities accept around the country.
We should expect fire authorities to make a positive effort to achieve consistency with certain areas of fire safety.
This should include such basics as types of SC devices on fire doors.  A fire authority would have no grounds to
argue a case prior to installation.  They could however, once installed, identify failures as a deficiency and expect remedial action.   

 

[Phoenix]

Phoenix, it matters very much what fire authorities accept around the country.
We should expect fire authorities to make a positive effort to achieve consistency with certain areas of fire safety.

Consistency!

I'm sure this is a good place to discuss consistency in fire safety but if we're going to go down that road give me time to gird up my loins.

I've worked with officers from dozens of brigades and I have spotted one enduring consistency, that being inconsistency.  I've worked in a large fire safety office where 15 or more officers might have 6 different opinions of a problem.  I've worked in a small fire safety office where 3 officers were equally capable of holding 6 opinions regarding a single problem!  Two each!  It's not so much inconsistency as a difference in perception.

The topic of fire safety is too broad, too varied, too changing, too subjective, too human to ever expect consistency.

Stu