FRA for residential building

[nim]

If a FRA determines that extinguishers and signage are required for the communal parts of a residential building should/would it determine the type, size and quantity of extinguishers and signs?

[Phoenix]

A fire risk assessment should be thorough, so yes.  Precisely.  Why do you ask?

Stu

[CivvyFSO]

The significant findings should include the measures that are to be taken for compliance with the RRO. So, to agree with Stu, it's another yes.

People could go down the route of being 'wooly' and simply stating that FFE should be provided "as necessary" to comply with the order, but that isn't much of a risk assessment, as the legislation tells you that quite clearly. (For FREE)

[nim]

A fire risk assessment should be thorough, so yes.  Precisely.  Why do you ask?

Stu

A residential management company has asked me to do a survey for extinguishers and signage because they have had a FRA carried out on a number of properties which just states that extinguishers and signs should be installed. No mention of type, size or quantity.

as the legislation tells you that quite clearly. (For FREE)

FRA's are not my speciality so either a quote or pointer to the right section would be helpful.

[nearlythere]

A fire risk assessment should be thorough, so yes.  Precisely.  Why do you ask?

Stu

A residential management company has asked me to do a survey for extinguishers and signage because they have had a FRA carried out on a number of properties which just states that extinguishers and signs should be installed. No mention of type, size or quantity.

as the legislation tells you that quite clearly. (For FREE)

FRA's are not my speciality so either a quote or pointer to the right section would be helpful.

I would be inclined to just go for a 2kg CO2 and Fire Blanket in each common levels. The sort of thing usually for in domestic kitchen if someone really wanted to provide extinguishers. Basic signage on how to use? Fire extinguisher companies will disagree but when you consider that the F&R Service advise to dwelling now is to try and close the door to a fire and get out.

[hammer1]

You should also look for the reason behind installing fire extinguishers in the common areas in the FRA. I have found in the past large Fire Company's completing the FRA are also installing the extinguishers. No point fixing a extinguisher 1m from the main entrance, so close to a final place of safety but yet so far...........

[Phoenix]

A residential management company has asked me to do a survey for extinguishers and signage because they have had a FRA carried out on a number of properties which just states that extinguishers and signs should be installed. No mention of type, size or quantity.

The scant attention that has been paid by the FRA in this area, with bland, generic comments (probably from "standard phrases"), could tend to indicate that the whole FRA might not have been thought through.  And it leads on to what hammer1 says.  I really wouldn't be surprised if no thought had gone into this recommendation and a standard phrase had just been arbitrarily stuck into the report to make it look as though the assessor knew what he was talking about.

On the other hand, nim, you got some work out of it, so shouldn't complain.

Stu

 

[jokar]

WE are now back to the discussion with regard to the necessity or otherwise of FFE in commonual areas of residential bldgs.  And signage,to achieve what if only one staircase is included.  Don't get me wrong do the work and get paid but it seems still to be madness.

[hammer1]

I meet a client once who was meeting their preferred contractor who installed signs and extinguishers. This residential block was a 1 s/c 3 Storey building. He was trying to insist directional signage be installed to indicate fire exit . Sort of had to retract his comments when I showed up asking if there is only one s/c and residents are familiar with the route (should hope so unless they go SAS from the roof each day) and any visitors are more than likely be with residents. Also he advised a AFFF 9 litre extinguisher in the entrance hallway, just by the front door .

Makes sense doesn't it, joe bloggs seconds away from safety comes face to face with an extinguisher and thinks 'shall I try and get this heavy thing back up those stairs to tackle blaze??'

Doubt I will be getting a Christmas card from him, but saved the client a few quid.


I bet most on here can tell if they enter a CHUBB FRA building within 5 minutes of entering

[AnthonyB]

Where extinguishers are required I will say what rating, media and location. That is because I am competent to do so.

A general statement 'need extinguishers' opens the door to extinguisher firms who more often than not will over provide and/or use inappropriate media.

If you don't know enough about extinguishers to give detail as to what & where, then should you really be doing an FRA? (other than small premises such as a lock up shop covered by the Entry Level Guide where small Powders are detailed as the answer)

I wouldn't put anything in common areas of flats 99% of the time. If they really want to help beyond that expected of them give everybody a fire blanket.

I wouldn't fit CO2 unless training residents due to the noise, pressure & frosting, but would stick with the Government preference of ABC powder (was ABC powder/halon)

[CivvyFSO]

my speciality so either a quote or pointer to the right section would be helpful.

From article 13 of the Fire Safety Order;

13. —(1) Where necessary (whether due to the features of the premises, the activity carried on there, any hazard present or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons, the responsible person must ensure that—
(a) the premises are, to the extent that it is appropriate, equipped with appropriate fire-fighting equipment and with fire detectors and alarms;

So if he hasn't told them what is actually appropriate then he hasn't really told them much more than the legislation has he?

[nearlythere]

I wouldn't put anything in common areas of flats 99% of the time. If they really want to help beyond that expected of them give everybody a fire blanket.

I think it depends very much AB on whether this is LA or private. My thoughts would be yes, provide blankets in each kitchen in the former, if an extinguisher is deemed neccessary and a blanket and Co2 and blanket in common areas of the latter. I would not go for DP, due to the mess, nor water in case someone electrocutes themselves. Most dwelling fire are electrical or cooking.
Appropriate extinguishers to cover internal car parks and electrical switchrooms.

[kurnal]

My suggestion would be to get the risk assessor back free of charge and ask for an explanation and justification of the findings. What are the hazards and what exactly are the  the appropriate risk control measures.

[nim]

I wouldn't put anything in common areas of flats 99% of the time. If they really want to help beyond that expected of them give everybody a fire blanket.

I think it depends very much AB on whether this is LA or private. My thoughts would be yes, provide blankets in each kitchen in the former, if an extinguisher is deemed neccessary and a blanket and Co2 and blanket in common areas of the latter. I would not go for DP, due to the mess, nor water in case someone electrocutes themselves. Most dwelling fire are electrical or cooking.
Appropriate extinguishers to cover internal car parks and electrical switchrooms.

These are private flats managed by manageing agents.

What are the hazards and what exactly are the  the appropriate risk control measures.

The hazards are virtually negligable in the communal areas. When I visited the only hazards were a bed (obviously left by a resident) in the hallway, a refuse area separated from the communal areas by what looked like a fire door and electrical meter cupboards which are enclosed and accessed by a door which might or might not be a fire door. Everything else is brick or concrete.

I have given the client three options

1 x 6Litre Foam Extinguisher per floor

or

1 x 6Litre Foam Extinguisher and
1 x 2kg CO2 Extinguisher per floor

or

2 x 6Litre Foam Extinguishers and
1 x 2kg CO2 Extinguisher per floor

all plus Fire Exit signs
Fire Door Keep Shut signs
Fire Door Keep Locked signs
Electrical Hazard Signs
Fire Action Notices
Fire Door Keep Clear signs


The problem I have is that even though the communal areas are small (30m/2) for me to ensure that the client complies with BS 5306 Part 8 they should choose the last option.

[kurnal]

Nim
My best advice is forget the extinguishers and focus on keeping the common staircase free of fire risk, regular inspections and rapid clearance of rubbish and beds etc.

In any case there is a clause in BS5306 for small premises allowing you to provide a 13A fire rating rather than 26A minimum per floor. Why CO2? Who is going to use them?

What will your fire action notices say? Have you seen chapter 12 of BS5588 part 1 - this gives advice on fire strategies for blocks of flats and the information that should be given to tenants.

Do you really need fire exit signs? Is there more than one way out?