Author Topic: How many more deaths?  (Read 8900 times)

Offline novascot

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How many more deaths?
« on: July 27, 2009, 03:47:45 PM »
Competence in carrying out Fire Risk Assessments.


Euan Williamson, a Fire-fighter with Lothian & Borders Fire & Rescue Authority, was killed whilst attending a fire in a pub in the Balmoral Bar in Dalry Road, Edinburgh in the early hours of Sunday 12th July 2009. Condolences go to family and friends & workmates. 22 persons had to be rescued from the flats above by Fire Service personnel.

This has been the disaster we have been waiting to happen. The Fire (Scotland) Act 2005: part 3 and The Regulatory Reform (Fire) Order 2005 in England & Wales allow and encourages the Responsible Person (usually a Manager) to carry out Fire Risk Assessments if they feel they are competent enough. (The definition of competence is: having sufficient experience, knowledge and skills to carry out the task).
 Unfortunately far too many premises have been Fire Risk Assessed by persons who obviously don't have the necessary competence to carry out Fire Risk Assessments.

A fire-fighter being killed is tragic enough but to have 22 persons requiring to be rescued by The Fire & Rescue Service is not acceptable. The Fire Risk Assessment (if there was one) should have taken cognizance of persons liable to be in or around the premises. That includes sleeping risks above the premises. Early warning of fire should have been given to those residents in the tenement and their evacuation should have been completed before their tenebility levels were breached.

This would have been done had an automatic fire detection system been installed with sounders in the common close.

It is time the legislation is changed so that Fire Risk Assessments are required to be carried out by suitably qualified persons. The Audit Control by Fire & Rescue Authorities is not working and is not robust enough because Fire Safety Officers have targets to reach in the amount of Audits they carry out and don't have the time to ensure compliance in all premises.
 
Let members of the public and Fire-fighters be protected by ensuring that Fire Risk Assessments are carried out by qualified and third party approved Assessors.


Offline morph

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Re: How many more deaths?
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2009, 04:27:07 PM »
Hi Novascot,
Do you have any inside knowledge?  E.g. was it accidental or deliberate?  You mention you don't know if a FRA had been carried out.  There may well have been but not been acted on.  If there was one, it may well have been carried out by a very competent person but significant findings not acted on.  There may well have been a Fire Alarm system installed.

What I am trying to say is that unless you actually know the facts it is not appropriate to speculate.  Your post makes me think you are a Fire Alarm salesperson?

Regards,
Mike

Offline novascot

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Re: How many more deaths?
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2009, 04:40:26 PM »
No I am not a Fire Alarm sales person. Just a concerned Fire Safety Consultant who has seen some awful FRA's carried out by the Responsible Person and beleive that this type of incident could happen again & again.

If as you say there was a "suitable & sufficient" (whatever that means) FRA carried out and the Action Plan was not adhered to, then that proves my point regarding the Audit system. The lack of warning to sleeping occupants would have been given a High Priority rating. IE ASAP.

Perhaps I should have used the word if more often.

Offline Phoenix

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Re: How many more deaths?
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2009, 08:04:54 PM »
There were many reasons for the introduction of the new legislation.  One was to slacken off the tight, often seen to be onerous and burdensome, control of fire safety.  I'm not saying this - this was a common perception. 

Part of me is a statistician and that part knows that, tragic though this incident was, and tragic though the many other fire deaths that have happened and will happen are, it will take considerably more data than has so far been amassed since the introduction of the new legislation to be able to conclude one way or the other if this introduction has met its objectives.

That is, fire tragedies happen, they always have and always will.  The question is, are they happening faster or slower than they used to?  And the answer is, it's too early to tell.

Stu


Offline colin todd

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Re: How many more deaths?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2009, 03:10:41 AM »
  I feel driven to make four points and then I will shut up on this topic (probably).

1. What was the status of the premises under the previous legislation and what mechanism of control did that legislation afford???????
2. Fire consultants are NOT the answer to everything, and certainly not to the reduction of national fire deaths.
3. Without wishing to take the moral high ground, I do not feel that the sad death of an L&B fire fighter or the rescue of people from a Scottish tenement, the latter of which has been going on from time to time as long as I have worked in fire safety and much before, should be the basis for proposals for restrictive practices in the provision of commercial services.
4. Before speculating and soap boxing in respect of such a tragic incident, it is usually best in my experience (for what little it is worth) to stay stum and allow proper analysis of facts by the investigating bodies.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline partymarty007

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Re: How many more deaths?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2009, 08:31:12 AM »
  I feel driven to make four points and then I will shut up on this topic (probably).

1. What was the status of the premises under the previous legislation and what mechanism of control did that legislation afford???????
2. Fire consultants are NOT the answer to everything, and certainly not to the reduction of national fire deaths.
3. Without wishing to take the moral high ground, I do not feel that the sad death of an L&B fire fighter or the rescue of people from a Scottish tenement, the latter of which has been going on from time to time as long as I have worked in fire safety and much before, should be the basis for proposals for restrictive practices in the provision of commercial services.
4. Before speculating and soap boxing in respect of such a tragic incident, it is usually best in my experience (for what little it is worth) to stay stum and allow proper analysis of facts by the investigating bodies.

Totally agreement Colin on all points!!

Offline Big T

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Re: How many more deaths?
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2009, 09:43:16 AM »
I also agree,

Dont get me started on communal fire alarms in blocks of flats though. I may need my morphine dose upped.

Midland Retty

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Re: How many more deaths?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2009, 10:36:42 AM »
Much has been speculated about the impact of the RR(FS)O (and its Scottish equivalent),  but who is to say that this disaster wouldn't have occured prior to the RRO

As Phoenix has already said, we can't start blaming the new regime for these horrific incidents, we need more data before we state that the new legislation isn't working.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 11:11:12 AM by Midland Retty »

Offline colin todd

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Re: How many more deaths?
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2009, 08:36:36 PM »
BIg T, Notwithstanding current hysteria, much from people who really ought to know better, that last thing in the world you would ever want to do, other than stop lusting after Joanna Lumley, is install a communal fire alarm system in a block of flats.

Universal wondrous being Retty, there is hope yet for the West Midlands when I read your posts.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Steven N

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Re: How many more deaths?
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2009, 08:25:05 AM »
After reading the majority of the above posts I think the rumours of the death of common sense of much exagerated, very refreshing ;)
These are my views and not the views of my employer

Offline colin todd

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Re: How many more deaths?
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2009, 12:28:47 AM »
Dont feel too comfortable. It is becoming a rare commodity.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Allen Higginson

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Re: How many more deaths?
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2009, 12:36:29 AM »
Oh,common sense is still alive...it just has to fill out a risk assesment before it starts it's kicking!

Offline colin todd

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Re: How many more deaths?
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2009, 12:45:49 AM »
I seem to recall you doing a risk assessment in respect of that girl in Thomsons Garage Buzzy and deciding that your action plan would be to look (sorry I mean stare open mouthed) but not touch.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Allen Higginson

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Re: How many more deaths?
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2009, 12:49:23 AM »
Yes indeed - the risk assesment led me to the conclusion that the actual hazard existed of getting my sphericals turned into earrings had I done anything more!
Must be due another Bush by now?

Offline colin todd

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Re: How many more deaths?
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2009, 03:57:12 AM »
September
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates