Fire Risk Assessment Review

[Mushy]

Hi

As you will be aware the Fire Safety Order states that a FRA should be reviewed regularly, particularly if there has been a significant change.

My question is to Assessors....do you carry out a Review anyway even if the occupier/Responsible Person tells you that there is no significant change? (with respect to doing a review 'regularly')

and if you do said Review and the findings are indeed no significant change, how do you document that?...ie do you write a letter to the Responsible Person saying that the review has found no change? or do you do a full report again

Thanks

[Mar62]

Hi Mushy

We would only carry out a review if asked / invited to by the said RP. We do write to customers from time to time asking if there has been changes etc. Obviously we would need to be invited to the property as lots of places I visit are by appt only and I wouldnt be allowed in otherwise, plus if we were to do a review (which maybe the RP doesn't want) who's paying for my time? Also if we weren't invited or allowed in we couldnt do a review? If we do a review then we normally re-issue the original document with any changes (including highlighting or removing completed actions) and indicating that it is a review of the FRA in ...date.....

Was that of any help?

M

[Username]

Proforma for use during a review comes with PAS 79

[kurnal]

We do the same as Martin 672. A review of premises that we have previously assessed also generally attracts a significant discount.

[Rex]

Review of fire risk assessments

In the mists of time when I was a young inspecting officer, we issued Requirement Notices, and give a specific time for the requirements to be carried out, with a follow up inspection. A Fire Certificate was issued upon completion of the works, or further time given to complete the works, or Court proceedings followed.
Now the Responsible Person can inspect their own premises, or employ a fire consultant no qualifications required. The consultant may indicate a period of time to complete the work with, or without consulting the RP. After the time period has expired, what happens next, if the works are not completed?  Does the RP contact the consultant, and inform him/her to carry out a further periodic fire risk assessment, probably not.
•   No court proceedings
•   No official warning is given 
•   No official follow up procedure
•   No identification that the building conforms to the RRFSO [I have known Fire Certificates proudly displayed in the foyers of hotels under the FPA 1971]
•   The only way the RRFSO can work if it is effectively enforced, even if all the works indicated in a fire risk assessment are completed, only the Fire Authority can indicate if it is satisfactory
•   I like others on this site have spent probably 2 years on various courses and seminars at M in M Fire Service Technical College, Registered as a fire risk assessor with the IFE, Nebosh General Certificate, Nebosh Fire Certificate, finished up as a worn out Senior Fire Officer in charge of a large fire prevention department, now anyone can do my job as a “fire consultant” with little or no experience.
•   I fully understand you do not need to be in the Fire Service to qualify as a fire consultant, but I do believe some formal qualifications are necessary to inspect a building that falls within the scope of the RRFSO.
•   We are now in the same boat as the former “non-certifiable premises” that were left to the owners/occupiers discretion whether they carried out fire prevention works to their premises.
•   Only once have I been formally requested to review a fire risk assessment, the RP was pleased with the completed works and wanted conformation. I used the PAS 79 follow up inspection format.


•   I have gone a little bit of the main subject, but feel a lot better now, or am I completely off my rocker…………………..

[CivvyFSO]

What I tend to see happening out there is yearly risk assessments. Not reviews, full new risk assessments.

[Mushy]

ok

the scenario 

A hospital has its design practice and finance department in another building away from the hospital site. The Office block that they occupy is multi occ and the hospital rent part of two floors.

The owners have asked two questions

Has a FRA been done

Who is the Responsible Person for the part occupied by the hospital staff


well the first question answer is 'yes'... it was done a year ago (and they have a copy!)....however it is up for Review and the occupiers say that there is no change at all since the original FRA...and on checking this is indeed the case

I was wondering if a covering letter to this extent is sufficient or if a full report was needed

The second question I think was answered in a previous thread whereby it would be the 'Hospital Trust Board' and the department heads who are the reponsible persons

[nearlythere]

•   there are changes to work other use activities or the way they are organised including the introduction of new equipment, shift patterns and working practices;
•   there has been a significant change in the matters to which it relates including when the
premises, special, technical and organisational measures, or organisation of the work undergo significant changes, extensions, or conversions,
•   alterations have taken place including the internal layout;
•   there have been substantial changes to furniture and fixings;
•   the storage or use of hazardous substances is introduced or increased from existing;
•   there has been a failure of any of the fire precautions measures;
•   there has been significant problems reported by staff or residents;
•   there is a significant increase in the number of people present;
•   persons with some different or specific form of disability are present;
•   there are changes to staff ratios;
•   there has been a fire or a situation occurred which could have resulted in a fire; or
•   formal representation has been made by a health and safety representative on behalf of the workforce.

[Big T]

We review the FRa annually to ensure all significant findings of the previous assessment have been mitigated or actioned. In addition a full hazard assessment is undertaken to identify any new issues. The review is generally carried out by the scheme manager or similar not a proffessional FRA person.

We carry out a full fire risk assessment when there is a change in use, change in occupation, change in interior layout.

If we take on new premises we review the old FRA and carry out a full FRA as their is a change in management.

[Benzerari]

Hi

As you will be aware the Fire Safety Order states that a FRA should be reviewed regularly, particularly if there has been a significant change.

My question is to Assessors....do you carry out a Review anyway even if the occupier/Responsible Person tells you that there is no significant change? (with respect to doing a review 'regularly')

and if you do said Review and the findings are indeed no significant change, how do you document that?...ie do you write a letter to the Responsible Person saying that the review has found no change? or do you do a full report again

Thanks

The following guide:   http://www.apollo-fire.co.uk/editpics/2807-1.pdf  , see page 2   , it uses the word of MUST instead of SHOULD, but I haven’t got a clue how this enforcement is applied.

[AnthonyB]

Virtually all our clients have us in annually & reissue a full fresh assessment (although revisits are cheaper than compiling the original report) & new tenant inspections.

There is so much scope for changes in conditions, risk & occupancy, plus ongoing issues in multi tenanted sites (particularly Shopping Centres) is easier for our clients (who manage hundreds of sites) to do this rather than try and review in house.

When talking to individual occupiers and advising during coordination visits I do make clear the difference between reviewing and redoing the whole thing.

I've noticed EN's & notice of deficiencies are tending more & more to be settling on annual review as the maximum interval.

[Wiz]

Hi

As you will be aware the Fire Safety Order states that a FRA should be reviewed regularly, particularly if there has been a significant change.

My question is to Assessors....do you carry out a Review anyway even if the occupier/Responsible Person tells you that there is no significant change? (with respect to doing a review 'regularly')

and if you do said Review and the findings are indeed no significant change, how do you document that?...ie do you write a letter to the Responsible Person saying that the review has found no change? or do you do a full report again

Thanks

The following guide:   http://www.apollo-fire.co.uk/editpics/2807-1.pdf  , see page 2   , it uses the word of MUST instead of SHOULD, but I haven’t got a clue how this enforcement is applied.

Benz, the difference in the general interpretation of the words 'should' and 'must' to most people is minimal. I think the document is making clear that you need a fire risk assessment and it's findings are reviewed at least annually.

I skimmed through the rest of the document, which I thought would be generally a very helpful document to those new to installing fire alarm systems, and I noticed one item that I thought could be read incorrectly. It is on page 12 and it is to do with travel distances. I think that the description and picture could easily be understood that the distance was measured only along the corridors etc. part of exit routes. My understanding is that the travel distance also includes the distances within rooms off corridors and it is the exact route a person would need to take (i.e around furniture etc.)

[Phoenix]

I noticed one item that I thought could be read incorrectly. It is on page 12 and it is to do with travel distances. I think that the description and picture could easily be understood that the distance was measured only along the corridors etc. part of exit routes.

I think you're right, Wiz.  If the diagram showed the red dotted line starting in a room (and possibly going round an item of furniture or two) then there would no confusion.  But I don't suppose many people use this guide as their primary source of fire safety guidance.

Stu

[Wiz]

Stu, I could certainly see a 'beginner' using the booklet as their only source of information on how to comply with BS5839-1. I think they are unlikely to purchase a copy of the BS or attend training courses at that stage of their involvement with fire alarm system. I might talk to Apollo about it although I accept it is a pretty minor thing and Apollo are unlikely to 'recall' the publication 

[Mr. P]

We recommend regular review (whatever that is!) but at least annually. Include review on any changes, alterations, etc. to buildings, work practices, use and so on. Where deficiences are identified, work out appropriate time schedule/priority for works to be done. Document also any findings that may be at a level whereby work could/should require suspending i.e. until deficiences are corrected or brought to a more acceptable level of risk.
I know it's not always that simple, but, you need a baseline to start from (before other [dis]interested get involved - or sometimes after, as that is often whenour line of work gets called upon - or so it seems by a great many of posts around here.

(start each day with a fresh smile - make the most of it - it's often downhill from then!!!)