Determination on type of detection in hotel bedrooms

[Wiz]

The other advantage with determinations is that they go to the people who are responsible for the legislation and guidance.

This ensures that they have to deal with some of the problems that they have created. This could just motivate them to resolve some of them.

Good point.

[nearlythere]

Terry,  Sir KK was the Commissioner of the LFB and still has numerous contacts within Fire Brigade circles, his staff are and were serving Fire Brigade Officers.

Can you explain how this is a neutral poistion?

And since when did being a Commissioner or a F&R Service officer mean having any sort of knowledge of Fire Safety pray tell?

[Allen Higginson]

Anyone fancy a pint?

[TallyHo]

In the hotel room I am sitting in at the moment, there is a SD positioned directly outside the bathroom.  Apart from actually being in the bathroom, this is the worst position it could be in.

This part of the hotel has been up about 12 months.

Obviously  the alarm installers position the heads where there is the highest liklihood of unwanted alarms, so they get called out more.

[Phoenix]

In the hotel room I am sitting in at the moment, there is a SD positioned directly outside the bathroom.  Apart from actually being in the bathroom, this is the worst position it could be in.

This part of the hotel has been up about 12 months.

Obviously  the alarm installers position the heads where there is the highest liklihood of unwanted alarms, so they get called out more.

Davey, 

I'm in a hotel at the moment looking at a smoke detector right outside the bathroom.  Are you next door?

Stu

ps When are you going to stop that banging?

[nearlythere]

Would you two be quiet and go to sleep.
Night Stu. Night Davey.

[Allen Higginson]

Would you two be quiet and go to sleep.
Night Stu. Night Davey.

Well,Im in a hotel just outside Stroke City and the night porter is serving beer,and will continue to do so until (i) I go to bed or (ii) breakfast is served!
As far as AFD goes,half the rooms (the "new" bit) have AFD via a Minerva 80,the rest don't but have detection in common areas (via a JSB panel) and neither set the other off!!!
Can anyone set me straight on what the requirements are in this quaint liilte place we call Norn Iron!

[kurnal]

Heres another angle on the discussion of detection in hotel bedrooms.
If a hotel sets aside Bedrooms for use by staff this constitutes an HMO.(As I read the Housing Act 2004).

The staff bedroom is therefore domestic premises and so the Fire Safety Order does not apply within it? No requirement can be made in respect of the provision of detection within rooms under the Fire Safety Order?

[Hightower]

The staff bedroom is therefore domestic premises and so the Fire Safety Order does not apply within it? No requirement can be made in respect of the provision of detection within rooms under the Fire Safety Order?

Kurnal -


Can it not be argued using the following articles from the RRO that indeed the RRO does have bearing to the staff rooms and therefore co-operation of their occupants is required:

Article 13,1 Fire-fighting and fire detection
     13. —(1) Where necessary (whether due to the features of the premises, the activity carried on there, any hazard present or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons, the responsible person must ensure that—

a) the premises are, to the extent that it is appropriate, equipped with appropriate fire-fighting equipment and with fire detectors and alarms; and


Article 17,1 [/b] -  Where necessary in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons the responsible person must ensure that the premises and any facilities, equipment and devices provided in respect of the premises under this Order or, subject to paragraph (6), under any other enactment, including any enactment repealed or revoked by this Order, are subject to a suitable system of maintenance and are maintained in an efficient state, in efficient working order and in good repair.

(2) Where the premises form part of a building, the responsible person may make arrangements with the occupier of any other premises forming part of the building for the purpose of ensuring that the requirements of paragraph (1) are met.

    (3) Paragraph (2) applies even if the other premises are not premises to which this Order applies.

    (4) The occupier of the other premises must co-operate with the responsible person for the purposes of paragraph (2).[/b]

    (5) Where the occupier of the other premises is not also the owner of those premises, the references to the occupier in paragraphs (2) and (4) are to be taken to be references to both the occupier and the owner.

[nearlythere]

Heres another angle on the discussion of detection in hotel bedrooms.
Bedrooms set aside for use by staff in hotels are HMOs.(As I read the Housing Act 2004).

The staff bedroom is therefore domestic premises and so the Fire Safety Order does not apply within it? No requirement can be made in respect of the provision of detection within rooms under the Fire Safety Order?

K. Is a staff bedroom not an extension of their workplace and as such come under the Order? If they are at their place of work are they not at risk in that part of the workplace where they and others sleep?
Just a thought.

[kurnal]

Hightower I refer to article 6(1) a of the FSO- the order does not apply to domestic premises. In my hotel, there is only a single occupier so  the provisions of article 17 (2)
are not relevant to the case. ( I think!)

NT- The definition of a workplace means "any parts of premises not being domestic premises...."

Domestic Premises means "premises occupied as a private dwelling...."

The Fire Safety Order does not define private dwelling. Paragraph 6 of Guidance note number 1 adds a statement that "........the Order does not apply to domestic premises used for domestic purposes"

Sections 254-260 of the Housing Act 2004  deal with the determination of whether premises are a HMO. Guidance notes published by local authorites do to some extent vary in their interpretation, but for example in the East Midlands  the Government funded Decent and Safe Homes (DASH) East Midlands guidance clearly covers staff bedrooms in workplaces- eg staff bedrooms in hotels, staff bedrooms in restaurants etc.

[terry martin]

Terry,  Sir KK was the Commissioner of the LFB and still has numerous contacts within Fire Brigade circles, his staff are and were serving Fire Brigade Officers.

Can you explain how this is a neutral poistion?

No. in short. Nowhere will you find a truely neutral position.

 but i don't think the example you refer to is much different in any organisation. An investigation by any organisation or company could be impacted on by familiarity, especially in the field of fire safety. I would be richer than Mr abramovich if i had a quid for every time i heard ' oh, i used to be a fire officer before i retired and started this job'. while i've still got my rose tinted glasses on i would like to add that, we hope everyone everywhere uses there proffessional judgement.

[nearlythere]

Not doubting the wisdom and knowledge of others this is an interesting legal piece about the definition of a dwelling.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200102/ldjudgmt/jd011011/uratem-1.htm

[CivvyFSO]

Kurnal, for it to be a HMO then there would have to be 3 or more unrelated tenants and rent (or other consideration) would have to be paid.

Back to common sense... Would a room in a hotel be classed as private just because it is 'put aside' for staff? I would suggest not, and I would challenge it on that basis. I would also point out the decision regarding self-catering holiday lets, the decision being that the RRO applies even though it is quite specifically domestic use. The hotel room also has the added duty of having to comply with the HSAW Act due to the presence of employees.

Even if someone could convince me, or someone else, that it was private and domestic then the occupier would remain a relevant person, and require protecting one way or another. If people argue about access to fit detection/sounders etc then we go down the route of passive measures or prohibition.

[kurnal]

Yes civvy I have in mind a third floor of a five storey hotel building which has 12 staff bedrooms, the top floor is hotel penthouse rooms for hotel guests. The staff are mostly migrant workers who sleep in the rooms and mostly eat in the staff dining room. All single people though some rooms have two matresses. The staff kitchen is on the first floor. Licensable HMO?(for arguments sake and for comparison with the approach of the Old FP act)