Fire (Scotland) Act - Fire Risk Assessment

[mr angry]

I have been browsing here for quite a while and find it very informative. I now have a small query for all you boffins with a working knowledge of the legislation north of the border.

It is my understanding that the common areas of blocks of residential flats where there are provisions for the protection of firefighters are not considered relevant premises, therefore have no requirement to carry out a fire risk assessment and as such do not fall under the scope of the fire safety audit. That said the enforcing authority has powers under regulation 23 & 24 to ensure these facilities are maintained.

The reason I ask, is that upon speaking to others there seems to be confusion over this issue and the interpretation of the above regulations. 

[nearlythere]

I have been browsing here for quite a while and find it very informative. I now have a small query for all you boffins with a working knowledge of the legislation north of the border.

It is my understanding that the common areas of blocks of residential flats where there are provisions for the protection of firefighters are not considered relevant premises, therefore have no requirement to carry out a fire risk assessment and as such do not fall under the scope of the fire safety audit. That said the enforcing authority has powers under regulation 23 & 24 to ensure these facilities are maintained.

The reason I ask, is that upon speaking to others there seems to be confusion over this issue and the interpretation of the above regulations.  

These types of premises, as you say under Scotish legislation and soon to be Northern Ireland , are not subject to the requirement for a FRA  and as such there is no relevant person in premises for this purpose. (I'm not such this has been by accident or design and Governments hate U-turning). They could however be relevant persons for the purposes of a fire risk assessment of an adjoining relevant premises.
As you also point out there is provision in the legislation for facilities provided for the protection of firefighters to be maintained.
The wording of this is important as, in my view, fire doors are not installed for the protection of fire fighters but to protect the means of escape for the occupants. Some argue that in a fire situation a firefighter could be an occupant and as such a relevant person however, the purpose of the premises is a dwelling and not a workplace for firefighters.
There could be specific equipment and facilities provided for firefighting purposes although not specifically for the protection of firefighters. Fire fighting lifts, dry & wet risers, fire alarm zone panels, stairway ventilation etc are what I believe the legislation in this respect may be maybe trying to refer to and failing.
IMHO of course.

[CivvyFSO]

To save some people the time I wasted looking....

We seem to be talking about the "Fire Safety (Scotland) Regulations 2006" NOT the Fire (Scotland) Act.

To me it looks particularly clear that you have to maintain the facilities, and it is 100% for the protection of firefighters, and the specific article (24) is there to bring common areas of domestic use into the fray. But... Just like the RRFSO you seem to be lacking an offence, unless relevant persons are put at risk due to the 'breach'.

For a detailed list of what is considered as there to protect fire-fighters I would make reference to  a note regarding the draft of the scottish regs: "Examples of features which may be included in the description are rising mains within buildings, fire-fighting lifts, water supplies and access for fire appliances."

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/08/18161928/19329

[kurnal]

Are these Regulations in force? The link takes us to  draft regulations, I looked on the OPSI site and failed to find them formally issued?

[nearlythere]

Are these Regulations in force? The link takes us to  draft regulations, I looked on the OPSI site and failed to find them formally issued?

Commenced 1 Oct 2006.

[CivvyFSO]

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/legislation/scotland/ssi2006/20060456.htm

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/legislation/scotland/acts2005/plain/asp_20050005_en

I posted the link to the draft notes as that is a reasonable explanation of what the articles were intended for.

[mr angry]

To save some people the time I wasted looking....

We seem to be talking about the "Fire Safety (Scotland) Regulations 2006" NOT the Fire (Scotland) Act.

To me it looks particularly clear that you have to maintain the facilities, and it is 100% for the protection of firefighters, and the specific article (24) is there to bring common areas of domestic use into the fray. But... Just like the RRFSO you seem to be lacking an offence, unless relevant persons are put at risk due to the 'breach'.

For a detailed list of what is considered as there to protect fire-fighters I would make reference to  a note regarding the draft of the scottish regs: "Examples of features which may be included in the description are rising mains within buildings, fire-fighting lifts, water supplies and access for fire appliances."

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/08/18161928/19329

Oh, sorry Civvy. I thought I mentioned the regs!!

[CivvyFSO]

Oh, sorry Civvy. I thought I mentioned the regs!!

Heh, no problem. I spent a while looking at articles 23 and 24 of the Fire (Scotland) Act and I was flabbergasted that someone could get misuse of hydrants confused with maintenance of measures for protection of firefighters.

[colin todd]

You will find the Scottish Government have issued their equivalent of the enforcers guide (though 10 times better) if you want to understand the intent. It was written by the people who drafted the legislation, rather than those who thought they know what the legislation might mean subject to interpretation and etc etc. By the way, they are not "articles", they are regulations.

[afterburner]

This discussion has been centred on the Fire Safety (Scotland) Regulations 2006 especially Regulations 23 & 24, with regard to the protection of firefighters in the common areas of private dwellings. For some reason the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005 seems to be excluded from the conversation. However, within the Act is: -

59 Power to make further provision for protection of fire-fighters
   (1) This section applies where regulations under section 58(1) make provision for or in connection with the maintenance of premises, facilities or equipment with a view to securing the safety of fire-fighters (whether employees of relevant authorities or otherwise) in the event of a fire in relevant premises (“safeguarding provision”).
   (2) The Scottish Ministers may by regulations apply, subject to any modifications (specified in the regulations) that they consider necessary, the safeguarding provision to common areas of private dwellings.
   (3) In subsection (2), “common area” includes, where a stair, passage, garden, yard, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of a private dwelling is used in common by the occupants of more than one private dwelling, that stair, passage, garden, yard, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance.

the absence of any such Regulations would indicate that either the Fire Authorities have not requested additional protection for firefighters in these common areas, or if they have, their position has been rejected by Scottish Ministers (A very unlikely outcome).

[CivvyFSO]

By the way, they are not "articles", they are regulations.

Since I was talking about the Fire (Scotland) Act are they not 'sections'? (Point noted and stored for future use anyway.)

Afterburner, the regulations are there. From what I can tell regulations (Is that better Sir Todd?) 23 and 24 in the FS Regs were created by the power you mention in the Act under section 59.

Colin, just out of interest, can you point me towards the Scottish version of Guidance Note No. 1? I have found the explanatory notes for the Act, but nothing so far for the Regulations.

[Davo]

Civvy

Try this link



http://www.infoscotland.com/firelaw/v2_index.jsp?p_applic=CCC&p_service=Content.show&pContentID=218&


davo

[CivvyFSO]

Thanks Davo.

[afterburner]

Civvy

the point I was trying to make was that although the Regulations are in place for the maintenance of protective provisions for firefighters, the powers of Section 59 allow the Ministers to alter the Regulations to include any provisions they think proper. Apart from maintenance there appears to be no current additional protection required by the Regulations.

for my own information, does this compare to the situation in E&W or is RRFSO tighter in this respect?

[CivvyFSO]

RRFSO is similar, but there is no question regarding relevant premises. All common areas fall under the RRFSO due to a slightly different wording.

domestic premises" means premises occupied as a private dwelling (including any garden, yard, garage, outhouse, or other appurtenance of such premises which is not used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling);

Remove the word "not" and you pretty much have the Scottish definition.