Technical Standards for Places of Entertainment

[Gasmeter]

Technical Standards for Places of Entertainment

I'm curious to know the status of this publication; when presenting a BS9999 solution to a Council Licensing Officer, he's referred to the above standard as being more onerous e.g. all escape routes must be protected.  Ultimately the Council may agree to the BS9999 solution, but I wonder how much weight should be given to this standard in future, has anyone had to deal with this before and how does it compare with ADB and BS9999?

I haven't seen a copy, but details are available at www.etbooks.co.uk/, I don't particularly want to add it to my library    Any comments much appreciated.

[wee brian]

I thought fire safety had been taken out of ents licensing?

[jokar]

The FSO and the Section 182 guidance would say this but an initial application would surely depend on the design parameters within the plans deposited.  Therefore, if the application is via BS 9999 then the design parameters within that application should follow the guidnace in that document.  As far as I am aware the Technical Standarsd are not a design brief, or are they and if they are can they be insisted upon?

[wee brian]

You bin takin lessons from Benz? Can anybody translate?

[CivvyFSO]

Wee Brian,

Section 182 guidance (Guidance made for the Licensing act in the same vein as ADB and CLG guides) states quite clearly that fire safety conditions can't form part of a licence any more. This is not just guidance, it is actually stating a fact because if fire safety conditions are put on a license then Article 43 of the RRFSO makes them completely meaningless^*....

If you are not complying with the fire safety legislation, then you are potentially not complying with the licensing act, but the licensing authority expect you to comply with all the other legislation. As such, they expect the relevant authority to deal with it through their relevant legislation. (Probably no different to how we expect the process risk to be covered by the HSE.)

At the application stage the Fire Authority could try to object to the license if they thought that fire safety conditions meant that public safety was an issue. The LA could then refuse to issue the license on those grounds, but they cannot put any fire safety conditions on the license. However, most Fire Authorities will deal with shortcomings such as these directly under the RRFSO.

There is nothing in any official guidance documents that says that compliance with BS9999 means that the relevant legislation is being complied with. (It is not mentioned in ADB, it is not in the CLG guides, and it is not in the Sec. 182 Guidance)

In a nutshell, protection of escape routes is nothing to do with the licensing authority, and it is ultimately up to the FRS (in most cases) whether a BS9999 solution complies with the RRFSO.

^{* From the RRFSO Article 43: (2) At any time when this Order applies in relation to the premises, any term, condition or restriction imposed by the licensing authority has no effect in so far as it relates to any matter in relation to which requirements or prohibitions are or could be imposed by or under this Order.}

[wee brian]

Yeah, that's what I thought. So what's this all about then?

[Gasmeter]

Thanks for all the comments; we won't have the Northern Ireland version of the RRO until November (almost identical to the Scottish legislation) and I'm not sure that fire safety will be taken away from Licensing even then.  

Ultimately we're obliged to do what the Council tells us, but this Ents standard seems to carry more weight with them than BS9999; I suspect that very few individuals in Building Control and their Licensing section are familiar with it and they seem very wary of accepting it.  However, I don't think it's fair to expect them to be completely up to speed on the huge range of standards they have to refer to.

The point in contention is that a new exit (additional to two existing ones) is accessed via a bar wash up area (about 3m travel, maintained exit luminaires fitted), the Licensing Officer wants this to be a protected route which causes all sorts of problems for us (BS9999 says that an escape route can pass through an ancillary room, page 69).  However, we'll get it sorted in the end  

[nearlythere]

Thanks for all the comments; we won't have the Northern Ireland version of the RRO until November (almost identical to the Scottish legislation) and I'm not sure that fire safety will be taken away from Licensing even then.  
Ultimately we're obliged to do what the Council tells us, but this Ents standard seems to carry more weight with them than BS9999; I suspect that very few individuals in Building Control and their Licensing section are familiar with it and they seem very wary of accepting it.  However, I don't think it's fair to expect them to be completely up to speed on the huge range of standards they have to refer to.
The point in contention is that a new exit (additional to two existing ones) is accessed via a bar wash up area (about 3m travel, maintained exit luminaires fitted), the Licensing Officer wants this to be a protected route which causes all sorts of problems for us (BS9999 says that an escape route can pass through an ancillary room, page 69).  However, we'll get it sorted in the end  

Regardless of what the LA do gasmeter the premises still requires a fire risk assessment under the workplace regs and the new Order when it applies. The LA may still wish the FB to carry out joint inspections, which it may or may not do, or go down the line of an audit of the FRA which, since 2001, should have been carried out already.
Being the enforcement authority it is up to the Council to decide how it will ensure the fire safety measures are appropriate for licensing purposes. As you know the FB can only advise.
A LAO giving fire safety advice? That's new.
In the past I have not accepted an means of escape for PPA through a wash area for no reason other than the possibility of a wet slippery floor.

[CivvyFSO]

Damn, apologies, I consistently forget about the difference with NI and Scotland.

[wee brian]

Now that makes sense. The old styley ents regs are a bit all powerful, I doubt there is any real compulsion for them to follow 9999

[Gasmeter]

Thanks all, just by the way the whole issue came to light as a result of the most recent review of the FRA, which just goes to show that the system works (sometimes)     

[novascot]

The Guidance Document for Places of Entertainment and Assembly in Scotland has recently been amended. Part of the amendments have taken BS 5830-1:2002 +A2:2008 Annexe A (P.119) and made up the following:

3. A fire detection and warning system designed, installed and maintained inaccordance with the guidance in BS 5839: Part 1 for a category L1 system should be provided for complex or large places of assembly or entertainment or where the premises can accommodate more than 300 people.

4. A fire detection and warning system designed, installed and maintained in accordance with the guidance in BS 5839: Part 1 for a category L2 system should be provided in premises that can accommodate between 100 and 300 people.
5. A fire detection and warning system designed, installed and maintained in accordance with the guidance in BS 5839: Part 1 for a category L3 system should be provided in premises that can accommodate between 60 and 100 people.
6. In smaller premises that can accommodate no more than 60 people it may be appropriate to install a category M system in accordance with BS 5839: Part 1.

7. In premises designed for places of entertainment and assembly where the sound
pressure levels of amplified music are greater than 80dB(A) then the music should be muted
automatically when the fire alarm signal is given.

The bold type is mine. FSO's are using this as requirements and not making the difference between pubs and clubs. This gives the ludicrous situation where a pub measuring 20m x 30m can legally have 300 persons and the FSO's can and in some cases do, ask for an L1 system.
This would make this small open plan pub have a more onerous Fire Alarm system than sleeping accomodation.

So if you are going to adopt the Scottish model in Northern Ireland,  then best of luck. I have tried to get some answers as to who amended this section but have had no reply.
Any comments?

[Gasmeter]

I believe the Northern Ireland Government here has purchased the rights to use Scottish guides and is just going to 'rebrand' them; so what you're saying is very interesting.  Fortunately for me, my organisation's default policy is to install L1.  I have the latest Scottish guides, but obviously I haven't studied them enough; I better spend some time on them before November