Author Topic: frosty CO2 extinguisher horns  (Read 7064 times)

Offline Mushy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 311
frosty CO2 extinguisher horns
« on: November 24, 2009, 02:15:17 PM »
Hi all

I know this may be one of them embarrassing questions that I should know... :-[

but what is it that makes the horn on a CO2 extinguisher frosty and how does the frost free extinguishers overcome this?

I'm guessing that it has something to do with the pressure keeping the gas as a liquid and the expansion ratio once it is expelled

but that's a guess...my memory of watch lectures is fading over the years!!...why have I got -55 in my head?

Offline afterburner

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 488
Re: frosty CO2 extinguisher horns
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2009, 02:39:09 PM »
Mushy if my memory serves correctly it is to do with the decompression exchange of heat as the liquid CO2 uses the available ambient heat to expand and vapourise within the horn. The CO2 grabs the heat, becomes a fast moving gas and in turn causes rapid cooling of the horn.

most fridges seem to work on this idea of compressing and evaporating a coolant gas.

now we'll both sit back and the real scientists out there will come back the proper reasons. 

Offline CivvyFSO

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1583
Re: frosty CO2 extinguisher horns
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2009, 03:55:16 PM »
CO2's boiling point is -57 (depends on the pressure) which is why you might have -55 in your head Mushy. :)

Offline bungle

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 48
Re: frosty CO2 extinguisher horns
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2009, 04:08:12 PM »
Mushy... Charles Law.. The volume of a gas is directly proportional to its temprature and vice versa. Thats why BA cylinders heat up when filled with compressed air and then the cylinder group gets so cold when its being used.

Bungle

Online AnthonyB

  • Firenet Extinguisher Expert
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2492
    • http://www.firewizard.co.uk
Re: frosty CO2 extinguisher horns
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2009, 10:49:37 PM »
This is because the CO2 fire extinguisher is held as a liquid under pressure within the cylinder, and when it is discharged it expands rapidly (450 to 1!), cooling down the material it contacts.  As such, during the discharge of a 2kg CO2 fire extinguisher, the temperature of a traditional horn drops by 40oC, giving the user a risk of frost burn if the horn is accidentally touched. The icing is water vapour in the air freezing.

A check of the old MoF part 1 1943 & 1963 (More detailed science in these) states temperature changes like this are due to Boyles Law- the inverse of the above is when increasing the pressure of gas in a cylinder you get heating up - when decant filling the old Sabre 'inhaler' portable oxygen cylinders from a larger 'F' size I had to keep one hand on the valve spanner of the donor and one on the recipient as if I filled too quickly the cylinder would heat up rapidly, (hich with oxygen isn't wise!) and I'd have to tighten off the donor valve & slow the filling rate.

Frost free horns work in two ways: the original Zahan is double skin - a horn within a horn - so the inner may frost but not the outer (however in practice neither frost due to air flow between the skins); and the other makes are simply thicker single skins.

The Zahan patent explains the detail of how it works, including how it has allowed the 2kg CO2 to gain a 55B rating instead of 34B - http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP1341584.html
Anthony Buck
Owner & Fire Safety Consultant at Fire Wizard


Extinguisher/Fire History Enthusiast

Fire Extinguisher Facebook Group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=65...415&ref=ts
http://www.youtube.com/user/contactacb
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/anthony-buck-36

Offline Mushy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 311
Re: frosty CO2 extinguisher horns
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2009, 08:50:00 AM »
Thanks all

Anthony... top answer!

Offline nearlythere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: frosty CO2 extinguisher horns
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2009, 03:27:09 PM »
Thanks all

Anthony... top answer!
Nothing worse than having a frosty horn Mushy.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Tom Sutton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2287
Re: frosty CO2 extinguisher horns
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2009, 07:11:02 PM »
AnthonyB please contact me I have sent a message to you, nothing to do with this thread :-\
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.