Today's great fire of London

[nearlythere]

Surprised that nobody has mentioned today's fire yet. Is there silence for a reason?

[Bobbins]

I hope the first reports are accurate and no one has died, however having seen the pictures on the BBC web page it will be a miracle if that is the case. By the look of it the flats that caught fire had one exit directly in to the face of the fire. 

Fire is truly a savage beast!

A big hand to the Fire and Rescue Service who must have been dreading another call out like this one so soon after Lakanal. 

[Tom Sutton]

Surprised that nobody has mentioned today's fire yet. Is there silence for a reason?

Maybe because it’s a building site no one is particularly interested unless you are HSE?

[jokar]

You missed the block of flats on fire as well then!

[nearlythere]

You missed the block of flats on fire as well then!

Quite a significant source of ignition for the flats I thought.

[Tom Sutton]

True

[Clevelandfire 3]

There was a lot of radiated heat to cause that little mess. Lucky really. Could have been alot worse.

[kurnal]

Timber framed buildings under construction again. We had a big warning at  Hendon a couple of years ago. Its high time that the exposure to adjoining properties during the construction phase was considered. The buildings are fine when complete and when firestopping and cladding is in place but construction phase remains a real problem. Big weakness of the CDM Regs as they do not consider persons outside the immediate site who could be affected by a fire. You can bet that the HSE will focus on enforcement of the CDM Regs rather than the Fire Safety Order on sites for which they are responsible. We have discussed this before and nothing has changed.

There is an unforiunate overlap and duplication of legislation here. The Fire Safety Order and the CDM Regs both apply to building sites. The Fire Authority are responsible for enforcement of both on some sites, wheras on some sites the HSE have responsibility. When the HSE are responsible they tend to focus on CDM Regulations and where the Fire Service are responsible they tend to focus on the Fire Safety Order.

All that is needed is for either the Fire Safety Order to be considered on all sites- to ensure a focus on relevant persons-  or the CDM Regs or Building Regs tobe changed to include consideration of external fire spread during the construction phase and not just on completion.

[Midland Retty]

I feel there needs to be a cultural change both within the construction industry and within the HSE. Yet another construction site has been lost along with all the man hours, resources and materials that went into it. Who is going to pay for that I wonder? Then there is the more concerning issue of how the blaze impinged onto the block of flats.

Alot of work seems to go into general health and safety on construction sites , is enough attention paid to fire safety?. Perhaps the perception is that a building under construction poses no risk.
 
The industry as a whole needs to pay more attention to the requirement for fire safety standards, bearing in mind loss of man hours, materials, etc  if fire does occur PLUS the affects that a blaze may have on the surrounding areas. (As indeed this incident shows).

Aside from that the HSE to be more stringent in enforcing the FSO when things go wrong. It has a duty to enforce it in these circumstances and as C3 said it could have been much much worse.

One last point is site security. A couple of recent blazes on construction sites in my locality have been put down to arson. So again perhaps a rethink is required to rdeuce the riosk of arson.

[terry martin]

You missed the block of flats on fire as well then!

resulting from Hendon and other high profile fires in tiber-frame construction under development. there have been moves to address the concerns by DCLG.

see the attached link www.pforum.fire.gov.uk/download/589

[Tom Sutton]

Terry having problems with your link is http://www.pforum.fire.gov.uk/22 (the third item) the same.

[colin todd]

Monsignor Retty, Re who is going to pay, the answer is the insurer-its what people pay their premiums for. With regard to all the work that has gone into H&S on construction sites, there are already 3 guides on the subject. Perhaps the CLG will use your taxes to get consultants to ask the trade how many guides there are, so that they can please their political masters again. Then there will be a report by someone important telling us there should either be a 4th guide cos clearly 3 are not enough, or that all guides should be amalgamated into a super-guide.
But as I always find dear harriet easy on the eye, though not as much as when she worked for the civil liberties wallahs, I should not complain. Has she been on the telly yet on the subject?

[kurnal]

No we dont need another guide Colin.
We need common sense building methods to be determined in accordance with the constraints of the site. This needs to be considered at planning stage when conditions should be placed which take  into account BR187- External Fire Spread and Boundary distances. This needs to be considered not only for the finished building as at present  but also for the construction phase. The Enforcement Authorities for the Fire Safety Order (HSE or Fire Authority) already have the power to control the risk to relevant persons on building sites but not till the timber frame starts to go up creating the hazard.

It aint rocket science to apply the tables in BR187 to building under construction to see that for some sites there would be a massive problem and for those sites certain construction methods to be disallowed.

[bungle]

Ms Harperson was indeed on scene that day, looking wonderful in her jackboots as she strode around the site actively searching for anything that the Lehman sisters could take offence to and obviously being devastated that she couldn't accuse the fire of discriminating against women/ethnic minorities/ poor people/ squirrels/ people called Eric or anything else.
My money is on another guide on building site fire safety being issued and ignored like all the others.

Bungle

[Midland Retty]

Lord Todd / My erstwhile best friend. I appreciate that I can occassionally appear somewhat half soaked , but even I know that the good people of the construction industry probably have insurance. My point was whether or not their insurance people would pay up after the fire. If they don't then who will? could it mean that the organisation undertaking the building works goes under as a result?

On the subject of guides I have to agree with the Prof on this one. You can have as many guides you like, indeed a construction site full of them, it does not necessarily mean the blighters will read them or pay any attention to them.

The industry appears to be hot on health and safety but how much info and training is given in terms of fire safety.