Author Topic: BS9999 and exit widths again  (Read 18285 times)

Offline kurnal

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BS9999 and exit widths again
« on: November 29, 2009, 08:57:23 AM »
For a premises of risk profile A1, BS9999 would recommend that any fire exit should be not less than a minimum of 800mm wide. (7.6.1.b) page 82.

It then allows an calculation of exit capacity to be based on 3.3mm per person (table 13)

Previous documents including ADB only allow interpolation of widths wider than 1050mm, not 800mm. This was because from the post war building studies it was considered that persons would pass through any opening less than two units of exit width (2 x 20 inches) in a single column. Persons were found to to travel through a single unit of exit width at a rate of 40 persons per minute. This led to limits of about 100 persons using doors of less than 1050mm and there was no benefit given if your doors were 900 mm rather than say 750mm.

Now for my building of A1 risk profile I can apply 3.3mm/person to my 800mm door, giving an exit capacity of 242 persons for an 800mm exit door.

What does this mean?

It means -  if the Post war building studies were right and people still only move in a single column at a rate of 40 persons per minute  -  that it will take 6 minutes for those persons to pass through that door. Now that is one heck of a jump from the old 2.5 - 3 minutes allowed for evacuation ?

Any comments?

  
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 08:58:56 AM by kurnal »

Davo

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Re: BS9999 and exit widths again
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2009, 02:42:25 PM »
Prof

Can you give some rough info, floors etc?

Most of the allowances under 9999 permit you to scrape up to a third extra, this seems out on a limb?

If people are more obese due to pies, beer etc then surely exit widths need increasing ???


davo

Offline Phoenix

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Re: BS9999 and exit widths again
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2009, 05:38:35 PM »
Hi kurnal,

Thanks for bringing this up.  From the outset I've been disturbed by the anomaly created by interpolation below 1100mm (1050mm for ADB's already cocked up figures).  Being a busy little bee though, the path I chose was to gloss over it until it became an issue in an actual building.  Well, now you've brought it up, I'll give you my opinion.  Another cock up.

There are so many of these in 9999 that one more shouldn't be a shock.  In saying that, I must add that I like the principles in 9999 and I think that overall it is a commendable publication (a few errors are inevitable - it was written by humans after all).

What is frightening though is the increased potential that building designers now have to put people at risk.

As well as your A1 building, a nightclub is allowed 3.3mm per person if they have a 7.5m ceiling.  That, I can understand a little more because the idea behind 9999 is to move away from the 2.5 minute evacuation time when it is clear that longer than that will be available (for example, because of the high ceiling).  But your A1 building might only have a 3m ceiling height.  I think the justification would lie in the slow fire growth rate but I agree with you that 6 minutes is a bit long to be waiting at the back of the queue to leave a room with a fire in it and only a 3m ceiling height.

A1 buildings are quite rare but A2 buildings aren't.  An A2 building needs (to start, it can go lower!) 3.6mm per person which brings the number for a 800mm door to 222.  Now A2 covers rooms like an office or a classroom, the sorts of rooms where we know we want the people out pretty smartish if there's a fire in the room.

A designer will argue for a further 15% reduction to 3.06mm if there's detection in the building.  That gives our door a capacity of 261.  A building designed to this standard and filled to the safe designated capacity would, in my opinion, not be safe.  We could have a room with a typical office type fire loading, with two 800mm doors, a 3m high ceiling and 261 people in the room.  Losing one door to the fire (medium growth rate) all 261 people have to leave through the remaining door.  I think people who are, to put it in an old colleague's terms, "receiving unambiguous fire cues", will go through a 800mm door quicker than 40 per minute, but to all get out in 2.5 minutes they would have to go through at over 100 per minute.  That won't happen.

I'll tell you what would happen, the pressure exerted by those at the back on those who are at or near the door would be sufficient to cause at least one person to trip and fall.  After that, many would fall and after that you've lost the only available exit.

Proposals for nightclubs under 9999 often take the 15% reduction offered for beneficial alarm systems when they should not.  The alarm provision is often of no benefit to those in the room of origin and so should be applied with reserve.

In general, I'd say the principles of 9999 are good but the guidelines that present those principles need to be read with a judicious eye.  And, unfortunately, this frequently does not happen.

Stu


Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: BS9999 and exit widths again
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2009, 11:13:53 PM »
Stu, ADB's 1050 is closer to the historic requirement for 2 exit widths based on post war building studies. An exit width was 21" / 533mm so the necessary 2 exit widths required to enable people to walk side-by-side is 42" / 1066mm. The old licensing guide (Yellow guide) also quoted 525mm as one unit of exit width.

However, details aside... What we all need to bear in mind is that compliance with BS9999 does not assume compliance with Building Regs, so people like myself and yourself who might be considering some designers figures based on the document can quite easily challenge them when there is a blatant issue such as what is mentioned here.

Providing we can explain why it is wrong it is up to the AI/BCO to take our advice, and it is for us to have some teeth if they ignore the advice and enforce suitable provision upon occupation. (With the blessing and backing of our superiors of course)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 12:10:38 PM by CivvyFSO »

Offline Phoenix

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Re: BS9999 and exit widths again
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2009, 08:36:05 AM »

Stu, ADB's 1050 is closer to the historic requirement for 2 exit widths based on post war building studies. An exit width was 21" / 533mm so the necessary 2 exit widths required to enable people to walk side-by-side is 43" / 1066mm. The old licensing guide (Yellow guide) also quoted 525mm as one unit of exit width.


Yes, that's true.  But, for the purist (some would say puerile), it's inconsistent between 1050mm and 1100mm.  It all comes about because of how they used to measure the door width.  Never mind, very minor point.



Providing we can explain why it is wrong it is up to the AI/BCO to take our advice, and it is for us to have some teeth if they ignore the advice and enforce suitable provision upon occupation. (With the blessing and backing of our superiors of course)


Very important point.

But I re-iterate what I said, building designers have an increased potential to put people at risk. 

A baby's been given a knife and it's up to the mother to be ever more vigilant.

Stu


Offline Mr. P

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Re: BS9999 and exit widths again
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2009, 09:31:46 AM »
An aside- apparently 'we', the average persons, are getting bigger (all the claims of obese society etc.) ... has this an effect on additional width been taken into account by the script writers of these publications? Or should we retire to the bar?

Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: BS9999 and exit widths again
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2009, 12:48:28 PM »
The BS9999 people have looked at it from the point of view of time required, not width needed to achieve 2.5mins evac time. We can only hope that it is based on some modern research, and not old research with a bit of fire growth calcs and tenability thrown in to the mix. A bloke who was involved with the creation of the document insists that the figures given are still very conservative, so there should be a large margin for error.

What concerns me about the exit widths used (aside from the interpolation mentioned here) is that they seem to have ignored the fact that once a queue is created and people end up closer together, the impact this has on movement and flow is quite considerable.


Offline kurnal

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Re: BS9999 and exit widths again
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2009, 10:02:46 PM »
If people are more obese due to pies, beer etc then surely exit widths need increasing ???
davo

How did you know I was thinking of you Davo?  ;D

Offline kurnal

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Re: BS9999 and exit widths again
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2009, 10:10:12 PM »
Thanks for your replies, hopefully someone may be able to point us towards a research document on which the change was based.

Offline colin todd

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Re: BS9999 and exit widths again
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2009, 12:32:59 AM »
Kurnal, These massive increases in exit width are well-known, and were obvious when the BS went out for public comment. Several of us raised serious concerns then, and also when BSI put on seminars as soon as it was published. I am surprised that the colossal change is a surprise to you. I have been outlining the figures you point out in courses for the fire and rescue service and building control for months. The general consensus is always shock and horror, but a belief that as it is a recognised BS it would be very difficult to challenge by an enforcing authority.
The BSI party line is that the world had years to use DD 9999, and that they then had the public comment period to complain. It has been said publicly that the reason the justification was not included in the published standard is that the figures in the standard are actually conservative and that if people read the justification they would want to extend them even further.
You have been roused from sleep too late , old chap. This is all history, not news, frightening though it is ( and has been since the draft for public comment was published).
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline kurnal

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Re: BS9999 and exit widths again
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2009, 09:05:00 AM »
Thank you Colin.
Your posting infers that its all my fault I came to the party too late. Maybe I did - but it does not explain why EVERY ONE of the figures for minimum door width per person in table 13 of BS9999 has been changed from the draft document for Public Consultation published by the BSI on 31 January 2008 and DD9999- 2005 version.  And we also have even smaller dimensions in table 18.

I did miss the subtle change to the application of interpolation of the tables to doors narrower than 1050mm - the concept  was mentioned in the draft for public consultation but was mentioned only once and then hidden away in a worked example- the same worked example in DD9999 2005 limited a 850mm door to 110 persons in keeping with tradition.

I would have thought such major and wholesale changes warranted some explanation and justification.

IF fundamental underpinning principles based on the post war building studies and forming the foundation of all National Guidance documents published in the last 60 years have been changed perhaps we should all be party to such information.
I would wager that they have not and have perhaps instead paid undue heed to the advice of an individual stakeholder during the consultation process?

As you say no point whinging after the event - but I would be interested in knowing the source of any data used to justify such changes.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 08:34:30 PM by kurnal »

Offline wee brian

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Re: BS9999 and exit widths again
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2009, 03:08:50 PM »
Kurnal

Why not put your name forward as a member. You would be better than most.


Offline colin todd

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Re: BS9999 and exit widths again
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2009, 10:20:02 AM »
Kurnal, Just giving you the BSI party line that they tell people, namely that its too late to complain now. The means of escape stuff was, I believe, principally the work of one person/ consultancy though to be fair any BSI standard is owned by the committee not an indivdual.
The answers you get from the BS are ludicrous in manyc cases, but the paraphrased answer given at BSI seminars is basically that it was all worked out by clever people who we should take on trust.
As for someone suggesting that A1 is rare, every section 20 office building in London is A1, and I had not ntoiced their rareity.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline hammer1

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Re: BS9999 and exit widths again
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2009, 11:04:44 AM »
For a premises of risk profile A1, BS9999 would recommend that any fire exit should be not less than a minimum of 800mm wide. (7.6.1.b) page 82.

It then allows an calculation of exit capacity to be based on 3.3mm per person (table 13)

Previous documents including ADB only allow interpolation of widths wider than 1050mm, not 800mm. This was because from the post war building studies it was considered that persons would pass through any opening less than two units of exit width (2 x 20 inches) in a single column. Persons were found to to travel through a single unit of exit width at a rate of 40 persons per minute. This led to limits of about 100 persons using doors of less than 1050mm and there was no benefit given if your doors were 900 mm rather than say 750mm.

Now for my building of A1 risk profile I can apply 3.3mm/person to my 800mm door, giving an exit capacity of 242 persons for an 800mm exit door.

What does this mean?

It means -  if the Post war building studies were right and people still only move in a single column at a rate of 40 persons per minute  -  that it will take 6 minutes for those persons to pass through that door. Now that is one heck of a jump from the old 2.5 - 3 minutes allowed for evacuation ?

Any comments?

  

But doesn't 9999 state that if you use the guidance in section 5 permits variations about travel distances/door widths only if the level of risk can be reduced via an increase of fire protection measures, this includes increase in management, automatic detection, sprinklers, smoke management etc etc.

Surely these active measures would not have been included in the post war studies(?), as we have progressed in increasing active and passive fire protection, surely these should now be taken into account.

If a scenario as mentioned above with the nightclub low level ceiling, lack of smoke control/management then I would not use 9999 as a benchmark due to the lack of high level fire protection/management in place. 

Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: BS9999 and exit widths again
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2009, 10:55:28 AM »
Hammer, the main point is that a 1040mm door is no better than an 800mm door, regardless of the level of safety in the room.

Look at it from this point of view:

2 rooms of exactly identical risk, but room A has 2 x 800mm door and room B has 2 x 1040mm door.
Discount one door as standard.
Both rooms will evacuate in single file through the doors, so the flow will be the same.
Take BS999's minimum requirement of 2.4mm per person. (Just to make more of a worst case point for numbers of people)
Room A can have 800/2.4 = 333 people
Room B can have 1040/2.4 = 433 people
That is an extra hundred people in room B, which adds approx 2.5 minutes onto the evac time of room A, with no difference in provision.
(And a flow of approx 40ppm through what is essentially single exit would achieve an approx escape time of 11 minutes.)