Fire Safety Advisor

[Mushy]

Hi

I am a Fire Safety Advisor for a NHS Trust and have put in my resignation. The Trust is strapped for cash and are questioning where it says that the NHS has to have a Fire Safety Advisor. I have pointed them to 3.6 and 3.7 HTM 05-01

They are now asking how long it will take to train someone internally...ie someone with no or limited knowledge of Fire Safety matters.

If you look at the role of Fire Safety Manager and Advisor (4.7 and 4. it is very specific in what they should be capable of. This Trust's Fire Safety Manager is a 'figurehead' only and I do all the Fire Safety work.

Any views on this. Thanks

[Midland Retty]

Its difficult to give you a conclusive answer but my interpretation is this:-

You have a Fire Safety Manager (who reports to a board director) who is  supposed to be the lead on Fire Safety. There are several roles (as dictated by the fire code) that the manager should forfil.

To help the manager forfil their roles and responsibilities they may need the assistance of a fire safety adviser who will normally be someone more technically competent than the manager.

However 05-01 states that a Fire Safety Manager can also be the Fire Safety Adviser (where the manager is competent enough to do the role).

I would suggest that within a large Trust the Fire Safety Manager would have no option but to look for assistance from a Fire Safety Adviser because of the sheer workload involved.

That fire safety adviser does not however necessarily have to be employed by the Trust. They could be an outside consultant or a Fire Safety Adviser from another Trust for example.

When doing audits the Enforcing Authority will look at how Fire Safety in the Trust is being managed, and if the management is structured properly.

If it goes in, does an audit and finds a stressed out fire safety manager, sinking fast under the workload I would suspect it would be far from impressed.

The end result would be that the Chief Exec would be told to address the situation as fire safety within the trust is not being managed adequately. Ultimately it could also lead to legal action if things were that bad.

[Colin Newman]

Retty you've just about summed things up.

The Fire Safety Manager should act as the focal point for all fire safety matters within the Trust.  Whilst it is not necessary for the FSM to posess fire safety qualifications or experience, they must have access to competent advice.  Where the FSM is not deemed sufficiently competent to attend to fire safety matters a Fire Safety Adviser should be appointed.  The FSA should be appointed within the organisation (i.e. a Trust employee) except for the smallest NHS organistations (e.g. GP's, dentists).

In terms of training someone internally it would probably take years unless that person could already demonstrate a significant level of knowledge and experience, in which case they'd probably already be doing the job!

Perhaps you could recommend that your Trust involves their Authorising Engineer (Fire) for a review of fire safety management and a minimum competency framework for any applicant for the post.

Every Trust is strapped for cash and budget cuts always take their toll on back of house services first, but non-compliance with statutory duties cannot be defended purely on the basis of cost savings.

If you PM me with your contact details I can put you in touch with a clever chap that can model the potential impact of budgetary cuts upon statutory compliance.

[kurnal]

The Fire Safety Manager should act as the focal point for all fire safety matters within the Trust.  Whilst it is not necessary for the FSM to posess fire safety qualifications or experience, they must have access to competent advice.  Where the FSM is not deemed sufficiently competent to attend to fire safety matters a Fire Safety Adviser should be appointed.  The FSA should be appointed within the organisation (i.e. a Trust employee) except for the smallest NHS organistations (e.g. GP's, dentists).

Colin I am fascinated by this comment. It strikes me that if someone is appointed as a FSM without being competent to attend to fire safety matters, how can they make key management decisions and exercise  judgement over priorities?
Are they not effectively a waste of space as a Fire Safety Manager unless they have the underpinning knowledge?
Cynical head on- Maybe  the key skill sets needed for the post of FSM a good understanding of political double speak and PR spin?
Cynical head off,  I have fears for the future management of the fire and rescue service who also seem bent on recruiting people without the basic underpinning skills and experience directly into the roles of manager in the fire and rescue service. Some of us "old school" managers may have been rubbish in terms of the Political objectives and double speak  but at least we had all done our time on the front line which taught us so much about core skills and priorities. 

[Midland Retty]

To answer your question Kurnal the Fire Safety Manager should have a broad knowledge of fire safety matters, but will often rely on the informed guidance from an advisor on the nitty gritty detail.

The exact role of the Fire Safety Manager is clearly defined in the HTMs - I wont write the definition here as it will take up too much space but I can happily email it to you if you wish. It defines the minimum attributes / knowledge expected of the FSM

In short it says that the Fire Safety Manager should take the lead - it is in some respects a figurehead role - it exists  to give some clout to get things done when needed.

Often the fire safety manager will actually do another role in the Trust. One Fire Safety Manager I deal with is actually the Trust Estates Manager for example.

On to your second point about fast tracked personnel or those recruited without the necessary underpinning knowledge because it is related to this discussion.

You know yourself Kurnal that on promotion Brigade Officers can be put in charge of departments they have little experience of such as Fire Safety, Fire Investigation, Brigade Communications, Workshops, I.T. etc etc, The fact is they exist primarily to manage - sometimes the role will need a wealth of experience in that field (An  Incident Commander requires operational experience to do their job. But does an Officer need operational experience to manage a fire safety department?  ) Sometimes it will call for informed decision making based on guidance and advice from colleagues instead of indepth underpinning knowledge.

Take it a step further - lets say your in charge of a HAZMATS incident - you come across a chemical you have never heard of before - so you request a Hazmats officer to come on scene and advise you of what to do. It doesn't mean to say you r incompetent, you just need additional guidance to help you make informed decisions.

I liken that to the relationship between the FSM and the Fire Safety Adviser.
  

[nearlythere]

 But does an Officer need operational experience to manage a fire safety department?
 

Most definitely not MR. To step from an operational career into a fire safety dept for two years for the sake of a bit of easy promotion (yes it does happen) is fine as long as he/she sticks to the colouring in books.
How does one manage a FS dept? Keep shouting "WORK HARDER" at the staff.

[Midland Retty]

 But does an Officer need operational experience to manage a fire safety department?
 

Most definitely not MR. To step from an operational career into a fire safety dept for two years for the sake of a bit of easy promotion (yes it does happen) is fine as long as he/she sticks to the colouring in books.
How does one manage a FS dept? Keep shouting "WORK HARDER" at the staff.

Bloomin heck sounds like you know my boss very well

(He's rubbish at the colouring in though and even sticks his tongue out when trying to colour within the lines)

[kurnal]

Ok thanks Retty.

Must have had me grumpy face on last night. Must read these things thoroughly sometime.
In terms of fast tracking yes I can relate to that too- been there done that (badly at times). The difference I percieve is that in the past there was a very clear focus - all departments were there to service the point of delivery at the sharp end. The priority was the delivery of a first class emergency service and all other departments were subservient and there to support this.

Managers would understand the needs and priorities of the sharp end through direct experience of this, and so would manage the periferal departments accordingly.

It strikes me that certainly in the fire service and perhaps in the health service that to bring in managers to a role without direct experience of the sharp end may result in empire building, diffent priorities and a removal of focus away from the core purpose of the organisation.

[Midland Retty]

Hi Prof

I know where you are coming from and do agree - there are some places where fast tracking can and does work - but in others it can be a complete disaster.

For what it's worth I dont think it works in the Fire & Rescue Service...anyway we digress!

[Colin Newman]

Once again Retty's spot on.

The role of FSM is described in such a way that there is sufficient flexibility to account for the wide variety of NHS Trust management structures.  In the past Firecode has focused only on the acute healthcare sector which was always (and to some extent remains) a weakness.  Primary Care Trusts operate in a different way to most acute trusts, very often the estates and facilities functions (including fire safety advice) is contracted out to a local acute trust and the PCT has little expertise in such functions.

In many acute trusts the organisation is responsible for a number of premises which are often spread across many separate sites sometimes requiring more than one fire safety adviser to assist and there is a need for some focal point to co-ordinate fire safety matters (in previous HTM's the role that subsequntly developed to become the FSM was referred to as "Fire Safety Co-Ordinator").

Whilst in an ideal world the FSM would have a thorough knowledge of fire safety issues, the reality is that in some trusts the role of FSM is performed by an existing manager such as the security manager, H&S manager etc.  With trusts being strapped for cash it is unlikely that they would employ an 'expert' for each of the risk issues that the organisation has to manage.