Author Topic: Sheltered housing Scotland with guest bedrooms  (Read 11717 times)

Offline Ricardo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 279
Sheltered housing Scotland with guest bedrooms
« on: January 15, 2010, 01:54:56 PM »
Once again sheltered housing (sorry) but specifically in Scotland, where there is purely a domestic complex with a roving warden only, no on site office facility, but common rooms which include “guest bedrooms” are in use. So I am thinking roving warden does not make this a relevant premises, if there was an office I say this ticks that box and would make it relevant and therefore would have relevant persons and come within the scope of the fire law in Scotland and the wardens employer and building owner would have fire safety responsibilities.

On looking at the definition of “domestic premises” from the Fire (Scotland) Act it says premises occupied as a private dwelling (INCLUDING a stair, passage, garden, yard, outhouse or other appurtenance  and any common areas used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling.

Now I take it that gust bedrooms fall into “other appurtenance” which make them domestic and outwith the scope of the FSA?

I have looked at the Housing (Scotland) Act 2006 and see no reference to sheltered housing to help, nor would I assume that HSE legislation can help regarding fire safety, since I have always been led to believe that all fire safety matters have been removed from such legislation and now fall into fire safety law.

Don’t know if I am right or not, but I can’t seem to see where guest bedrooms in common areas of sheltered housing in the above scenario fits into fire safety law in Scotland and who is legally responsible for ensuring the safety from fire of the guest bedroom users, since I am assuming they are domestic, am I missing something? Am I interpreting the definition from the FSA wrongly? As sense tells me someone must be responsible under law in such a set up, but who and under what?

 


Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
Re: Sheltered housing Scotland with guest bedrooms
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2010, 02:43:04 PM »
Thats a tricky one Ricardo.

Who controls use of the Guest bedrooms?
Is there a fee charged for use of the rooms and by whom?
Do the tenants have to seek permission of the Landlord to use one?
Who goes in and cleans the bedroom after each use?

I dont know the answer, and dont know if the questions above help clarify the situation or not.

In England as you know the Fire Safety Order definition is different and our Housing Act helps us (But not a lot) with the definition of Domestic premises.

Offline Ricardo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 279
Re: Sheltered housing Scotland with guest bedrooms
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2010, 08:02:10 PM »
Hi Kurnal

thanks for the feedback, at this time I don't know the answers to your questions, would I assume that if the answers are landlord,yes,yes and someone employed by the landlord for cleaning the guest bedrooms then it would be easy, it would be then be a relevant premises and everyone in it would be relevant people and tha Act would then apply.that would be great and answer all my questions if it were. You certainly have given me some good questions to go and get answers to. Any further advice most welcome
 

Offline ando

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: Sheltered housing Scotland with guest bedrooms
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2010, 09:00:09 PM »
This is an area that causes some debate and hunting through legislation does not make it any clearer.
Certainly the individual flats are not relevant, communal parts could be covered under the civic government act section 93 to be kept clear of fire hazards and under the FSA 2005 for the maintenence of any existing measures to protect firefighters.
The guest bedrooms could be considered relevant as they are not domestic (no tennency agreement), i think the matter of payment would be irrelevent. Also where there is an office or laundry or similar where the warden works this could be considered a work place.

Offline nearlythere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: Sheltered housing Scotland with guest bedrooms
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2010, 09:56:31 AM »
If the guest bedrooms where for the specific use of "guests" of a resident or residents then would it not be a domestic arrangement just as it would be if you had a guest in your own house.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Ricardo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 279
Re: Sheltered housing Scotland with guest bedrooms
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2010, 04:55:38 PM »
If the guest bedrooms where for the specific use of "guests" of a resident or residents then would it not be a domestic arrangement just as it would be if you had a guest in your own house.
Thats what I am thinking NT, but I am struggling with who is responsible for fire safety arrangements in such rooms, I cant seem to get them to fit into any legislation, unless of course I am wrong and they are relevant.

Offline nearlythere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: Sheltered housing Scotland with guest bedrooms
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2010, 10:05:33 PM »
If the guest bedrooms where for the specific use of "guests" of a resident or residents then would it not be a domestic arrangement just as it would be if you had a guest in your own house.
Thats what I am thinking NT, but I am struggling with who is responsible for fire safety arrangements in such rooms,
Maybe nobody as possibly being a private domestic situation they are not relevant premises.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Midland Retty

  • Guest
Re: Sheltered housing Scotland with guest bedrooms
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2010, 05:17:33 PM »
I think it comes down to something which I bang on about all the time- the element of control someone has over a particular building or part of the building.

Ok agreed the guest bedroom is ultimately for the use of guests of a specific resident

But the guest bedrooms are available for use by any resident and their guests.

If you had a scenario where guest bedrooms were assigned to specific flats then yes  I would see it simply as an extension of a domestic dwelling.

But that is not the case and I can only conclude that the guest bedrooms in your scenario are a "common facility" and therefore a common area.

Offline nearlythere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: Sheltered housing Scotland with guest bedrooms
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2010, 06:56:21 PM »
Possibly MR, but if it is accepted that the sheltered housing is a dwelling then issues relating to common areas is irrelevant. Scottish, and soon Northern Ireland, legislation differs from English on this matter.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Midland Retty

  • Guest
Re: Sheltered housing Scotland with guest bedrooms
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2010, 10:04:19 AM »
Fair enough NT I must admit I'm rusty when it comes to the Scottish Legislation

Is there not however a differentiation between the dometic parts proper (i.e; someones flat) and the "communal areas" even though the whole sheltered scheme is classed as a dwelling?

Offline nearlythere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: Sheltered housing Scotland with guest bedrooms
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2010, 10:20:29 AM »
Fair enough NT I must admit I'm rusty when it comes to the Scottish Legislation

Is there not however a differentiation between the dometic parts proper (i.e; someones flat) and the "communal areas" even though the whole sheltered scheme is classed as a dwelling?
No. This common area bits of domestic premises being relevant is not included in the Scottish and NI legislation. The regulations only require the maintenance of any measures provided for the protection of firefighters.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 10:23:04 AM by nearlythere »
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
Re: Sheltered housing Scotland with guest bedrooms
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2010, 12:16:11 PM »
Section 75 of the Fire (Scotland) Act is as follows:

Meaning of “relevant premises” .(1)
In this Part, “relevant premises” means any premises other than those mentioned in subsection (2). ......
(2) Those premises are—
(a) domestic premises; ........

(3)In paragraph (a) of subsection (2), “domestic premises” means premises occupied as a private dwelling (including a stair, passage, garden, yard, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises which is used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling); but does not include premises such as are mentioned in subsection (5)..... .
...............

If guest bedrooms and common rooms fall under the description or "other appurtenance which is used in common" then they are not relevant premises. But I dont know- thats why I asked the questions in my first posting - and perhaps it would take a brave enforcement authority and a legal judgement to decide. If for example I hire the residents lounge from which to sell my goods or services ........... or if the landlord controls the residents' guest's bedrooms and employs a caretaker to manage the bookings and clean the rooms my gut feeling is that this would fall outside the spirit of the legislation?  

« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 01:27:22 PM by kurnal »

Offline afterburner

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 488
Re: Sheltered housing Scotland with guest bedrooms
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2010, 02:13:59 PM »
Is not the whole complex a place of work for the roving warden? If so it falls into section 53 of the Fire (Scotland) Act although the FRA would not have to be recorded.

Additionally, if there are 'rules' for the complex, overseen by the roving warden would they not be a 'person in control to any extent' as defined in section 54 of the Act?

Offline nearlythere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: Sheltered housing Scotland with guest bedrooms
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2010, 02:56:16 PM »
Is not the whole complex a place of work for the roving warden? If so it falls into section 53 of the Fire (Scotland) Act although the FRA would not have to be recorded.

Additionally, if there are 'rules' for the complex, overseen by the roving warden would they not be a 'person in control to any extent' as defined in section 54 of the Act?
Know where you are coming from AB but don't think so. This is domestic premises, just like your own house despite there being times when people can enter even though they don't live there. Would you have to carry out a fire risk assessment for when the postman or meter reader comes as you would be to any extent in control of those areas where they need access to?
The roving warden may be employed there and H&S legislation may apply to them but it is still a domestic premises and as such does not come under the FSO other than for measures for the protection of firefighters.
IMVHO of course.
This issue has been thrashed out in the past here. Maybe someone can point you to that particular topic.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline afterburner

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 488
Re: Sheltered housing Scotland with guest bedrooms
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2010, 10:49:29 AM »
NT I think you right after re-reading all of section 78. the Domestic premises exemption does seem to apply

as for the guest bedrooms my first thought would be the same 'domestic' classification. However, as previously mentioned the subject of payment for use of the room may cloud the issue.